Saturday, December 10, 2016

The Near Future and the Distant Past

In the last post, I predicted certain dire outcomes in the near future. In the comment space, Nemesis, my friend, asked me:

"Satish, your blog seems to perish, it seems to go extinct, commenters are getting rare... why is it?"

Let me tell you a couple of things about Nemesis first. I have always shared his views on Empire, the workings of Empire, the nature of Empire, the impacts of Empire, everything Empire. He's been ranting about it all on that now-defunct comment space of another blog called "Nature Bats Last", NBL in short. That's where I met Nemesis... on NBL. That's where I met a number of other friends as well, none of whom I have ever met in person. And yet, I consider them good friends because we agree on a lot of things and we share certain uncommon non-mainstream views.

I dedicate this blog post to all my NBL friends... you know who you are! Thank you for following me on to my blog and listening to what I have to say and saying the things I need to listen to... I appreciate your company.

My blog might very well be going extinct. There's not much new to say anymore. I feel like I have said it all. I have talked about indigenous peoples, how our ancestors were all indigenous peoples and how we gradually started seeing ourselves as separate and apart from the rest of the creation around us (what we refer to as 'nature'). We have now reached a point where this journey of separation and all the associated trends are coming to a head. And rapidly so. This is what I was talking about in my last blog post. Sure, it seems "negative", but it's what I see happening and I am simply mentioning it. Any characterization or judgment of unpalatable trends and events as negative is simply that - a judgment. There's nothing wrong with judgment either... it's a healthy part of the process of discernment, which is a healthy and normal part of living.

If you watch the documentary on the Kogi of Columbia ("From the Heart of the World: The Elder Brother's Warning") and its sequel (Aluna), you might be able to see better that I am simply paraphrasing what our indigenous older brothers have been telling us all along. Is the warning of the Kogi to the civilized man to be seen as negative? When they tell us we are choking the Earth, should we take it as an insult, as a negative assessment of who we are and of what our culture stands for? Perhaps it's a good question to ask ourselves why we are so turned off by criticism. In some ways, running away from criticism is in itself a cultural phenomena of modern times. We would not have built our cities and highways and technologies if we didn't "successfully" turn a blind eye to the warnings and criticism from indigenous peoples for well over 400 years.

Nemesis goes on to say, "What about some positive message, some positive perspective, some positive inspiration? I mean, all that evil and destructive shit in the world is more than obvious for everyone. There must be more than just negative messages."

I still haven't figured out the whole issue with "negativity". It's not a descriptor I would use and I understand that when it is used, it more or less means "unpalatable", "unwelcome", "unpleasant" and generally "uncalled for". The words "positive" and "negative" are simply descriptors that apply to an experience. When I hear feedback on my writing that says it's negative, my interpretation of it is that reading what I write creates an unpleasant experience in the reader's consciousness. I'm aware of the fact that a lot of what I have been saying recently portends much unpleasantness. Thinking about an unpleasant future understandably causes an unpleasant experience in the current moment. It's up to us to sit with it for as long as it requires us to process all associated emotions. Burying unsavory thoughts works temporarily but they will be back.

At this point, let me repeat what I have said before - this blog is not for everyone. And it may not be for you at certain times in your life. We are all stressed out enough by the simple act of existing in the modern world. More often than not, our plates are full and we can't handle anymore stress-inducing stories that come our way. It is important to take care of yourself and if it is too much to handle, simply stop reading and turn away. Recently, I shared a couple of my slideshows including Geophilia with a few friends. One of them, a 22-year old woman, saw it all and then she wanted to watch an animation film called "Lilo and Stitch". It was her way of balancing her heart and mind after witnessing a number of "negative" things going on in the world. We all need to take time off now and then. I have been doing more of that myself, hence the fewer posts this year compared to previous years. I encourage you to stop reading if you're called to do so. I have known from the beginning that this blog wasn't going to be for everyone and I won't mind if you unsubscribe :)

There is a reason why so many documentaries that shed light on what's going on in the world end on an optimistic note. The recent Lenoardo DiCaprio film, "Before the Flood" is a good example. As dire a picture as it paints on the real possibilities we are to expect from abrupt climate change that's now underway, it ends by proposing such oft-quoted "solutions" as electing leaders who will fight climate change, ending fossil fuel subsidies and investing in renewables. We civilized people simply can't handle it raw. We want to hear it's all under control. Filmmakers realize this and throw in a bunch of action items at the end. Recycle those soda cans and you're helping the environment. Drive a hybrid and you've done your part. I agree with Guy McPherson when he says this sort of misdirection amounts to fraud. Someone said that the ultimate form of optimism is jumping off a high rise building and as each floor passes by, telling oneself "so far so good"! Culturally, we civilized people living in highly complex and vulnerable systems are doing something very similar as each year goes by. But don't say that out loud or no one will watch your documentary or read your article!

I'd like to mention a few common responses that I have noticed when people encounter information that upsets or unsettles them. There is this idea shared by many in the New Age movement that it doesn't matter how we live on this planet because it's not as important or as real as the higher planes that we will ascend to after death. At best, this response is a personal adaptation resorted to by the naive when confronted by a sick culture and at worst, it's a gross dereliction of one's responsibilities to fellow humans and Earthlings. The Earth is not here for us to use as we please on our way to higher astral planes. Any such notions are strikingly similar to the technologist's view that we're not to worry about our planet just as soon as we devise a way to get to Mars and colonize it. Consider what Stephen Hawking, the "celebrated" Physicist says in a recent article:

"We now have the technology to destroy the planet on which we live, but have not yet developed the ability to escape it. Perhaps in a few hundred years, we will have established human colonies amid the stars, but right now we only have one planet, and we need to work together to protect it."

As if the main reason to worry about planet Earth is that we haven't yet figured out how to get out of here. If we do, we can trash the Earth as we say good bye! Such levels of disconnection from Mother Earth go by unnoticed by the mainstream media and the masses who celebrate dysfunctional minds like his. He's concerned about his species but he treats it like it has always been an orphan looking for a home. Well, we had a home here. We had one for 200,000 years before we trashed it, before highly trained Physicists and Scientists like him helped trash it.  It's hard for Stephen Hawking to see humanity's disconnection from land, the rise of psychopathy and other trends that have caused the mess we are in... he instead views it through a Physicist's lens and as much as he tries to understand the problems at hand, he fails miserably, and ends up making statements such as this.

Another common New Age response to unpleasant thoughts and ideas is to block them, shun them and move away from the source they are emanating from. There's this notion among some New Agers that thinking about negative things gives them energy and makes them bigger and helps them to persist longer. It's as if ignoring what we refer to as negative would make it go away. I believe there is such a thing as the Law of Attraction in the Universe and it most definitely works but one should be wary of the numerous misinterpretations of this law. Ignoring our impact on the planet will not make the impact go away.

Related to all this is the cultural denial of death itself. The idea that we are going to be in trouble in the near future is related to the idea that we are going to die at some point. Our culture doesn't incorporate death as a natural aspect of existence. As a culture, we cause death all around us and yet we seldom take a moment to ponder over our own collective mortality. Some in fact believe that we are close to more or less conquering all human disease and death with our awesome technology. Our stories and culture couldn't be farther from reality. We surround ourselves with screens and pick and choose the stories that appeal to us with little effort while so much that goes on in the world goes unmentioned, unacknowledged, and unaddressed. Many still believe technology will save us from our problems. Very few see technology as a part of the problem. Recently, I overheard a conversation that revolved around using technology to "hack" consciousness. It was about using electronic gadgets such as headgear to record brain waves! It somehow doesn't make sense to me. Maybe it does to you! Understanding one's consciousness shouldn't involve electronic gadgets that use rare earth minerals like Coltan mined by children with their bare hands in hostile conditions in the Congo. There's something twisted about it that jumps out at me. How about expanding our consciousness by becoming more aware of what feeds the global supply chain that brings us our smart gadgets? Isn't that part of becoming more conscious? I firmly believe that the path to a higher consciosuness starts with and goes through the Earth. We can't bypass understanding what's going on right here in our quest for enlightenment. A woodpecker told me that!

I'm not trying to knock the New Age movement. In an overly materialistic culture, it's popularity is gratifying. Spirituality is absolutely necessary in our modern left-brained overly-rational overly-masculine culture. Grounded in care, compassion and empathy, spirituality acts as a counterweight to Scientism. But the question arises: has it become a shortcut that encourages seekers to look beyond their physical reality and ignore the creation directly around them in a quest to attain transcendence? How did the notion that life on Earth is just an illusion gain such prominence? It turns out that in many cases, modern Spirituality (New Age or otherwise) conforms to the larger social and cultural system that is currently dominant: this can be seen in the form of Yoga and meditation rooms on leafy campuses of technology companies in Silicon Valley, for instance. While the technologists are leaning way too much to the left, the spiritualists are leaning way too much to the right. Right-brained imbalance shows up as lack of rigor and logic and an absence of methodical analysis and a lack of skepticism.

Perhaps this historic time that we find ourselves in is meant for slowing down and taking stock of the situation. Our near future is highly connected to our distant past. What we are about to see and experience in the next few years and the next decade will be better experienced physically, mentally and psychologically by working on understanding our connection to the past, our indigenous ancestors, our lands we called home when we were all still indigenous and our once-healthy relationship to Mother Earth. It is important to figure out what we had, what we have lost and what has been forgotten. It is important to understand how we used to live in balance with land and with other species and how the masculine and the feminine energies worked together. It is important to understand that we live in a highly artificial set of constructs today that normally keeps us from inquiring into matters of this nature. It is important to be skeptical and yet trust in the larger Universe that is always guiding us to where we need to go... if we only slow down and listen! The Universe is magical and synchronistic and our time here on Earth these days is perhaps meant for us to realize that.

Hopefully, there's something positive and hopeful there for you.

219 comments:

  1. Satish your words are ringing so true. More particularly the last paragraph where you state that "Perhaps this historic time that we find ourselves in is meant for slowing down and taking stock of the situation. Our near future is highly connected to our distant past".

    Yes. But we are absolutely disconnected, from the knowledge that our tribal ancestors' men of knowledge built over tens of thousands of years knowledge on which tribesmen around the world relied to "live in balance with land and with other species and how the masculine and the feminine energies worked together...", and so "what we are about to see and experience in the next few years and the next decade will be" at best a very difficult "experience physically, mentally, and psychologically".

    Trusting, that the larger Universe is always going to guide us to where we need to go, is I feel not going to happen this time. Our species has ignored the systemic reality of life and now is pay-back time. The consciousness of the universe is preparing to cleanse mother earth from the toxins our adolescent and hubristic species has loaded her with over the last few hundred years.

    The promise of the restoration of mother earth's health should rejoice us. The ugliness that power societies and Modernity have imposed on her will erased and beauty shall be free to flourish anew. But what about us? Is there any space left for humanity?

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    1. Hi Lao, so true... "Yes. But we are absolutely disconnected, from the knowledge that our tribal ancestors' men of knowledge built over tens of thousands of years knowledge on which tribesmen around the world"

      Our ancestors were excellent listeners and as they moved from place to place, they paid attention to what the land was telling them and that helped them survive and thrive. Moderners are poor listeners. We forgot how to listen.

      Yes, the Universal consciousness is getting ready to cleanse the Earth of the cancer that humans have become. We have riddled the planet with some 80,000 synthetic chemicals that are wreaking havoc with life everywhere from the poles to the deep oceans. We're due for a thorough cleanse. Perhaps there is space left for some uncontacted tribes in the Amazon, or other indigenous peoples still eking out a living despite encroachments into their lands. If any humans deserve to make it, it's those who are closest to nature, those who still listen to their lands and other Earthlings around them. The rest who have forgotten to listen will find it nearly impossible to make it through the cleanse.

      As the Lakota chief pointed out recently, they don't own the land, the land owns them. That's the kind of mentality and thought that indigenous people the world over subscribe to. I hope they live through the coming times. So, yes, I hope there's space left for humanity. I like humanity. I like our species... it's just our culture that has gone wrong. The culture we call civilization.

      Love your paintings! Such rich colors and contrast!

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    2. Yes this feels surely right: "Perhaps there is space left for some uncontacted tribes in the Amazon, or other indigenous peoples still eking out a living despite encroachments into their lands. If any humans deserve to make it, it's those who are closest to nature, those who still listen to their lands and other Earthlings around them".

      "I like humanity. I like our species... it's just our culture that has gone wrong. The culture we call civilization". I feel the same as you.

      Civilization is when a minority starts to impose its power on the majority and so inequality sets in that drives individualism in the minds of the men of power which sets in motion the separation of the trinity "knowledge, worldview, art" that finds its 'denouement' in High-Modernity with philosophic rationalism and science taking holistic knowledge out of the societal equation and so the arts end up on the path of their perdition. And note that it took only 2 centuries from there for Western societies to atomize in a mass of zombified individuals...

      Thanks for your comment on my paintings... it's my subconscious side; the other side being conscious thinking.

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    3. Right on... Civilization is a result of the minority seizing power from the rest (people and other species and the Earth itself). The minority is psychopathic and lacks conscience. The rise of the psychopath happened just as people began losing connection with the land. It's debatable which caused which - the disconnection giving rise to the psychopath or the psychopath causing the disconnection. Native people used to keep a close eye on the psychopathic characters in their tribes and prevented him from overrunning the entire tribe. But then it happened at some point and the rest is history.

      The psychopath is also responsible for the separation of art from daily life. The Native American basket makers combined art and utility in the same object. Today, we have utility in IKEA and art in the museum.

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  2. My friend Satish,

    I am still here, reading your thoughts and emotions. And I share these thoughts and emotions with you. I realized the fate of Empire some 30 years ago already, so there is nothing new for me in the predicament of Empire. You can see it too, you got a clear, eagle-like eye on Empire and I do highly appreciate that. But, while one of your eyes is wide open and awake, the other eye of yours appears to be sleeping. We got two eyes. One eye says:

    Death and destruction!

    But we got another eye, that says:

    Life and evolution/metamorphosis!

    You say:

    " I still haven't figured out the whole issue with "negativity". It's not a descriptor I would use and I understand that when it is used, it more or less means "unpalatable", "unwelcome", "unpleasant" and generally "uncalled for". The words "positive" and "negative" are simply descriptors that apply to an experience."

    I got no problem with negativity in general. You know, some people around me would surely say, that I am one of the most negative persons they ever met, because I always talk about climate change and the destruction of Mother Earth :-) BUT, mostly I talk this way to people, who did NOT realize the facts. Why should I talk about all the crimes of Empire to people, who already realized the facts by themselves?! Makes no sense at all. So, I talk to these people this way and I talk to those people that way, because not all people are the same regarded to their realization. Some got one eye open, others got the other eye open. To come to full realization, we need to open up both eyes. There are not many people in this world, who managed to open up both eyes. I consider these few people, who opened up both eyes, as awakened.

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    1. You know, who my teacher is. He teached me death and destruction right from earliest childhood on. Everything and everybody, who comes to existence, will have to die one day in the not so distant future. Good and bad people, sleeping people and awakened people, they will all die soon. It is the same message, that Buddha teached:

      Everything, everybody, who comes to existence, will die soon!

      That is the message of impermanence. Full truth, no reason here, to put on any rose-colored glasses on. Death is a reality right from the start. BUT, there is another message as well. And that message says:

      No matter, how harsh and negative things appear, there is a way to end misery and suffering!

      Now, what to make out of that second message, that is what I am asking for ! You say:

      "Yes, the Universal consciousness is getting ready to cleanse the Earth of the cancer that humans have become"
      And I say: No, that's the wrong way to think of it. Humankind is not garbage that needs to be "cleansened". You know, I come from Germany and the term "to cleansen" was exactly the term, the nazis used to describe their imagination of "cleansening" the earth of "cancerous human beings" like Jews, homosexuals, gypsies ect ect. So, you go on, saying:

      "Civilization is a result of the minority seizing power from the rest (people and other species and the Earth itself). The minority is psychopathic and lacks conscience."

      What now? "Cleansening" of humankind or cleansening of a minority? What does "cleansening" mean at all ?! I tell you, my friend Satish:

      To talk about human beings as being garbage/dirt and cancer that needs to be "cleansened" is of no value at all, in fact, it makes the situation even worse! That term of "cleansening" shows no love, no compassion whatsovever. Only a man, who got food every day and a hut or a shack and no material problems, can talk this way. This way of talking is the way, westeners talk about human beings. The Kogi people eg never said anything about "cleansening", they never said anything about humankind being "cancer".

      You know, I talk to you straight ahead as I talk to any other of my real friends. I talk from man to man in respect:

      If you haven't learned more from Death, than talking about "cancerous human beings" and "cleansening" of the Earth, you didn't even realize half of what Death teaches and your message will be of no real value at all. I say that as a man, who's teacher was and is Death from the very beginning, all my life, you see. Death teached me, how to die before I die, before I leave this body, this form of being, so that I can travel on without regret, when I will have to leave this place and time. The purpose of Death is to learn, to transform myself, to realize, what goes beyond Life and Death.

      Now, please, my precious friend Satish Musunuru, please tell me:

      What do you know beyond Death and destruction? What to you have to teach the people, who will face Death soon? Imagine, you are a care worker in some hospice:

      WHAT will your message to these dying people be? Open both eyes of yours and then tell me:

      What is your message this morning, for the people, who will die this evening?

      Namaste

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    2. I needed to look at a certain picture after I read this.

      Grinning, grinning ... always grinning!

      https://www.google.ca/search?q=skull+picture&biw=1366&bih=604&tbm=isch&imgil=x21tJXffgJJcBM%253A%253B3zNoJW9mXIuF-M%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.pngall.com%25252Fskull-png&source=iu&pf=m&fir=x21tJXffgJJcBM%253A%252C3zNoJW9mXIuF-M%252C_&usg=__1ucJxHTEpfeVRHrD1m0QG83HU1I%3D&ved=0ahUKEwjnv7fqhvLQAhXGKWMKHa5HCsQQyjcIWw&ei=B2BQWKegLMbTjAOuj6mgDA#imgrc=x21tJXffgJJcBM%3A

      :D

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    3. Hi, LWA, what a pleasure, to see you here at that beach of doom. Hellya, he is just always grinning, saying nothing, just grinning :-)

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    4. Here's one for you Nem ... just for old times sake.

      Grinning

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    5. Aaah, too beautiful that song. Man, you always got some medicine, some Music in your pocket. Thanks so much, bro :-)

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  3. Oh my friend, Nemesis! Good to see you here and to hear from you...

    There are 7.4 billion human beings on the planet these days... Based on their worldviews, what they do for a living, how they behave, where they live, etc. they can be arranged to fit into a pyramid. At the top are the ones who have created Empire... the elites. Right below them are those that help the elites run the empire. And so on, down below, we find the victims of empire, the starving children in the "Global South", the farmers being driven off their lands by Big Ag, the unskilled and semi-skilled factory workers who live and work in factory-prisons or do bonded labor in brick kilns and mines. Outside the pyramid, below the pyramid are all the indigenous and native peoples who are not really part of civilization. This is the setup I have in mind.

    Now, talking about cancer, am I off base when I say the top of the pyramid has turned cancerous? You would agree with me that Empire is a problem. The elites have separated themselves from nature and the rest of us and are on a run-away path. They have turned cancerous. Am I off base when I say the Billion or so people in the pyramid below the elites who are directly engaged in building and maintaining Empire and enthusiastically spreading it all over the world have turned cancerous? They believe in the stories the elites have told them. Stories of superiority over nature and other beings, superiority over indigenous people, and dominion over Earth. It is the stories that make up a human being. Without stories, a human being cannot function, cannot live. And my use of the word "cancer" refers to the stories that modern human beings believe in. It is not a judgment of their character or intentions. In fact, much of the work of spreading civilization is done with all good intentions. Much of the plundering of the planet is done in the name of saving the world, bringing schools to remote areas, providing electricity to villages, etc. To the extent that we think these are things we need to do, to the extent that we think we are doing good for the world by constructing schools in Tibet and teaching the kids English, to the extent that we build a dam to electrify a village, to the extent that we support space travel and Elon Musk, we are exhibiting signs of cancer.

    Talk about compassion... where is the compassion for the victims of Empire? For all the other beings that the cancerous humans are daily sending to extinction? Where is the compassion for the mountains? And the rivers? Where is the compassion for the African child digging for coltan to power our smart phones? Where is the compassion for the Amazon's indigenous tribes who are being displaced because civilized people are burning down their forests to turn them into cattle farms to make beef for civilized people? What is the most appropriate word one would use to describe the billions of civilized people that are playing the role of predators?

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    1. Yes, dear friend, I hear you. When will you realize, that I realized all that shit you are talking about some decades ago already?

      Now, you did not answer my question so far. So let me repeat my question:

      What do you know beyond Death and destruction? What do you have to teach to the people, who will face Death soon? Imagine, you are a care worker in some hospice:

      WHAT will your message to these dying people be? Open both eyes of yours and then tell me:

      What is your message this morning, for the people, who will die this evening?


      I mean that serious, really serious, dead serious so to say. Your last words in that article of yours say this:

      " It is important to be skeptical and yet trust in the larger Universe that is always guiding us to where we need to go... if we only slow down and listen! The Universe is magical and synchronistic and our time here on Earth these days is perhaps meant for us to realize that."

      That's a very good start I think. So, please answer my question and tell me more of what you said at the end of your article...

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  4. I said it above in my comment to Lao - "I like humanity. I like our species... it's just our culture that has gone wrong. The culture we call civilization".

    So when I say humans are behaving like a cancer, or humans have turned cancerous, I'm really talking about civilized people, and mostly the upper half of the pyramid of civilization, the rest of the people below being the victims of civilization, having been forcefully civilized over decades or centuries. Billions of people have been added to the pyramid in the last century. These people wouldn't be there but for all the stories the civilized people taught those that were living outside civilization, and forcing them into an alien world, into cities and towns, places where the market calls the shots, sans community, separated from land. This has been the work of civilization. There is no word that comes to mind other than cancer. And if it's about evolution and metamorphosis, it may very well be... But I find it odd that we view suffering as an integral part of evolution. The Native Americans took life to sustain themselves. They shot at deer and other animals, but they did so consciously and carefully, causing as little pain as possible. Life needs death. There is no denying that. But there is a way to go about it that doesn't involve needless suffering. There is no need to view what's going on with rose colored glasses. We see something bad going on, we call it out. I don't have a need to look at the bright side of it like most people do. The bright side came and went. I see it in the past. In the lives of our ancestors. In the lives of the indigenous peoples that are still fighting the cancer that is invading them.

    That's what the DAPL is all about - cancer invading a healthy community and the latter's immune system, as compromised as it is, attempting to fight back. Even if we object to the pipeline, the truth is we need oil to live our high-footprint lives, drive our cars and fly in our planes. That oil has to come from somewhere. Civilized people are addicted to oil. They are addicted to their stories.

    "Why should I talk about all the crimes of Empire to people, who already realized the facts by themselves?! Makes no sense at all." I'm not writing this blog for you alone, Nemesis! Maybe I am not writing it for you at all! There are plenty of people who don't realize what you realize. Plenty of people that I run into all the time who believe the Empire is a force for good, that the leaders are doing their best to solve our problems and that we should teach everyone how to live like us. Just recently, I ran into a well-meaning smart person who thought Google and Facebook are good for the world. And that farmers can learn new techniques through the Internet! These are the stories of civilization... that others need our help... just as the colonizers were told by the kings and queens that the natives needed their help and they were doing great work by civilizing them. If only we would leave the farmers alone... and you seem to think everyone knows the facts about Empire so why talk about it!

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    1. I didn't say, that everyone knows the facts. Some comment ago I said, that I talk about Death and destruction in my community all the time.

      Never mind. Still you did not answer my question. So I have to answer that question on my own. I like that, because I answer most of my questions on my own.

      Well, I heard your message loud and clearly:

      Death and destruction.

      So, thank you. I got your message. It's a short and clear message. And when I ask my teacher about that, he appears to have nothing more to add here absolutely for sure.

      Bye

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  5. "Yes, dear friend, I hear you. When will you realize, that I realized all that shit you are talking about some decades ago already?"

    "What is your message this morning, for the people, who will die this evening?"

    " It is important to be skeptical and yet trust in the larger Universe that is always guiding us to where we need to go... if we only slow down and listen! The Universe is magical and synchronistic and our time here on Earth these days is perhaps meant for us to realize that."

    That's a very good start I think. So, please answer my question and tell me more of what you said at the end of your article..

    -----

    Nemesis, it sounds like you need a blog to say what you want to say. I can feel it... you have something to contribute to this time that we are all going through. Instead of saying it yourself, you want me to say it! You want me to stop saying what I am saying (because you already know it) and you want me to say what you think everyone needs to hear...

    I will tell you what... there are plenty of people saying the things that you want me to say. Maybe I will say those things too here in this space at some point... but you can't force it :)

    I like the work of Stephen Jenkinson... he actually worked in hospice for many years and has much to say about modern people's aversion to death. When other people say something better than I do, I point that out. I recommend Stephen Jenkinson's documentary and book, and his many YouTube videos. Being a student of death, you probably know of him already. If not, you will like him... let me know what you think of what he has to say... I'd be curious to hear your take... I think it's important we listen to and understand folks like him at this time in our collective history.

    I have things to say about death too... and I will say it in my own way... it will be connected to what I have been saying all along. There will be a link to indigenous thought there... my next blog post will touch upon death a bit...

    Thanks for hanging out here and chatting, Nemesis... it's all part of the journey :)

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    1. Muhahaha, no, I don't need any blog. I am just talking to individuals, not to "the world" or something. I was talking to you, just this one person, you, I don't need no other blog than yours, to say what I have to say to one person, namely you.

      I didn't force you to stop writing what you write. Why should I? You can write whatever you want. But, you know, I read things, when there is some inspiration in it or something to learn. So, I realized the message of your blog, I learned that message of your blog. But what's there left to say for me now? Sure, I could add comments like this to your blog:

      Ouh, ah, death and destruction, yes, yes, yes, death and destruction, death and destruction, death and destruction.... ad infinitum....

      No, that wouldn't make much sense, would it? Or I could pile up climate news stuff, like "now the arctic sea ice is so and so and the drought in California is so and so ad infinitum....". But that wouldn't make much sense either, as there are millions of websites, who do that day in day out much better than I do. So, what's left to say, when the patient is DEAD already?

      Nothing. That's what I learned from my teacher. There is no need, to add anything to your death message, nothing. When the doctor said to the patient "You are dead already", then there is no need, to waste anymore words.

      Yes, it's all part of the journey and so I will dive back into silence now. I love to talk, when talking is suitable and I love to be silent, when obviously there is nothing left to say anymore.

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    2. Most people do not know that they are part of a killing machine. Most people are unaware that the Earth is being systematically choked and destroyed. Most people do not understand their own personal role in this project of civilization. Most people are unable to connect the dots from our past to the present. Most people do not know that we are going through a sixth mass extinction. Most people have no idea that the fate of our own species hangs in the balance. I recently came across a woman who thought that humans will be around for hundreds of thousands of years. She is a teacher too... a Science teacher at that! The levels of delusion and ignorance are horrifying. I could keep talking about this stuff for years and still not say everything I want to say... so, yeah, death and destruction are the themes of our time here, of our generation, of our culture, of our era. We don't have to talk about this stuff... we're, after all, exceptionally good at ignoring the elephant in the room.

      I understand if you're tired of listening to what you already know... or if you're generally fed up with the topic of this blog - assessing where we are and charting out the path we took to get here, and extrapolating the trends into the future. It's not that I don't believe in a grander Universe, or that there is a larger story that all this is a part of. I believe there is a Universal dialog going on in the creation around us, among all beings. I believe participants in the Universe can and do communicate with each other through telepathy. I believe there are real and valid aspects of the Universe that we call remote viewing, clairvoyance, non-local consciousness, synchronicity, and other psi phenomena... LWA once said he doesn't even like the word "psi" because it makes it sound other-worldly when, in fact, it's a very natural aspect of creation. So, yes, there is more to it than what I have been talking about in this blog lately.

      But what's missing is the connection. We don't seem to have a way to connect physical reality with the non-physical. There are those who live by the physical and reject the idea of the non-physical (left-brained imbalance) and there are those that see the physical as temporary and lower than the non-physical (right-brained imbalance). Here, again, my interest is in approaching it from the point of view of the Native person who didn't see a sharp line between the physical and the non-physical. They saw it all as an enmeshed, seamlessly interwoven web and they existed in both the worlds with equal ease.

      When we realize we're not doing all that well today, when we realize we're not superior to our ancestors, when we realize we have much to learn from the plant and animal worlds, when we realize there is much that the indigenous person living today has to offer us, perhaps we will finally find that balance between the masculine and the feminine, between the left and the right hemispheres and between action and thought. We clearly have too much action and too little thought these days... so even if we can't reverse course, an understanding of how we got to where we are, an understanding of what's truly important and what's not, and a sense of respect for the creation around us might help us in this last chapter... That's my hope.

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    3. What are the odds that on the same day that I write all the above, I run into this most repulsive display of arrogance on the part of those cancerous humans I have been talking about - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDtzZbafx_Q

      It's not just celebrities that mirror the attitude of civilized people toward indigenous people, but regular Joe and Jane as well... after all, this act by a celebrity wouldn't be funny but for the tacit approval and participation by the large majority of the masses. A friend of mine, a 75-yr old gentleman proceeded to scratch his armpits like a gorilla as he made fun of tribal people... I was telling him about tribal people over lunch one day when this happened. The notion that our ancestors were uncouth and ill-mannered monkeys is actually quite prevalent in modern mainstream culture. I couldn't even begin to talk about the rot in modern culture. Calling it a cancer hardly does justice to it, given what I see around me.

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  6. Replies
    1. Yes, I'm always lurking around, here and there.

      I was glad to see an email today notifying me of a new kuku entry.

      I see what you mean by the toxicity of the modern 'stories.' I too know of people who think civilization is a great achievement, who think technology is always amazing and just awesome, and who think our political and business leaders always are acting in our best interest.

      I don't even know what to say to these people. It's a mindset, or an awareness level in their consciousness or something. These are often the same people who speak of climate change as something that won't be a problem until after they are long gone anyway, so who cares, right?

      They can't even seem to identify the problem with such a self absorbed 'me' statement ...

      Take care Satish.

      :)

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    2. Yes, I know people who have children and grandchildren and yet say they will be long gone before it all gets ugly. Not only are modern people disconnected from their ancestors, but they couldn't give a hoot about their own offspring... maybe it's a reflex mechanism, a quirk of human psychology to write things off... but we don't need to explain it I guess. It's just ugly and that's the deal... I have lived my life, now it's up to them to deal with theirs... this is the height of individualism.

      When I first came to the US, I was shocked to find out that some parents ask their children (if they are over 18) to pay rent if they want to live in their house. That sort of thing was unheard of, not even imaginable, in India. This inter-generational dynamic has been quite fascinating... a far cry from the 7th generation precautionary principle that the Natives subscribed to.

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    3. For a long time I thought that collectively raising the consciousness of other human beings was the answer. It is possible to do that, you know, to alter people's thinking just by raising their vibration, done through various (most commonly yogic) techniques.

      However, as Nemesis has alluded to, when the patients consciousness has been so badly compromised that they are effectively already dead, what more can really be done? I guess the bad guys won. I hope they enjoy their prize, they sure have earned it. I think they're in for a rather big shock when they get that prize though.

      :D :D :D ... :( :( :(

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    4. I spent a long time observing the inter-generational conflict as the flames were fanned here in N. America by the media. I've read plenty of articles urging the geriatric generation to view their offspring as leeches who were lazy complainers. Don't will your money to them, those no good bunch of whiners ... leave your money to us, or to our church instead !

      Reverse mortgages were a place to see this mindset, or 'story', propagated. You are encouraged to re-mortgage the home you now own ... and ...

      "Don't make a payment until YOU choose to sell ..."

      The ads always talk about how nice it would be to maybe help your grandkids with school ... but they always skipped over mentioning the direct kids of the elderly folks being targeted by these schemes. The kids are the one's who inherit your home as a debt ... payable upon your death. It's inter-generational suicide, and it's been wrapped up in a 'story' that says your kids are horrible cretins who deserve your animosity.

      I've scanned many a magazine cover blaming the younger generation for anything and everything. This is a mindset, a 'story', that's been marketed to gullible people because it suited current economics. "They don't need your help ... give us your money instead."

      And it worked ... it became another 'story' that people suddenly believed, that their own children were monsters to be despised. No doubt it was shocking to see when you came here. Talk about no brain ... believing it just because your favorite magazine wrote a few opinion pieces about it. Welcome a 'murica, where people even hate their own kids ... because they saw it in the 'news.'

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    5. It's yet another plot by the evil psychopaths. They sure do know how to break up communities and families and generations. They separated the people from their lands, then they separated people from their extended families, they broke up the nuclear family, they created a gender war, they created an inter-generational war and numerous other wars in our very psyches. They sure succeeded... they never cared about others, or even themselves...

      My friend says nuclear war will not happen because the elites have too much to lose. I tell him these people are not like us. Psychopaths are a different breed and they don't ever have too much to lose in the game of conquest and risk.

      Those are some astute observations you have been making regarding the brainwashing of the older generations when it comes to their resources that the elites have a keen eye on.

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    6. Divide and conquer ... been going on for a long time, and people STILL don't recognize it when it's applied on them.

      Something interesting from a psychological stand point ... this generation that is being told their children are lazy complainers (complaining about no jobs, no housing, no economy, climate, etc, etc), these elderly folks were actually the spoiled ones who grew up in the golden years of economic expansion after WWII. They all had access to good jobs, to housing, to reasonably priced products. They are the ones most eligible to be labeled the 'spoiled brats' ... and they are the ones falling for this 'your kids are no good' line.

      I wonder if entitlement creates a psychological predisposition for laying the blame on others and for refusing to ever self analyze? Either that or it's just random irony that the current golden years generation has fallen for the despise your kids propaganda. They were the spoiled ones, lol. We just can't find a job or afford a house ... let alone two or three or four.

      Anyway. I have issues with the mindset of America's current geriatric generation. :(

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    7. Right on... the baby boomers have had the most "interesting" lives of any current or recent generations. In terms of material wealth, they oversaw and benefited from the largest expansion of the oil economy, advances in technology and standard of living and access to world cultures and cuisines. And they also saw through the most separation from nature, massive migration to cities, dramatic changes in culture (for the worse) and the rise of statism, techno-optimism, and the military-industrial complex. How the hippie generation whose members came of age in the age of rebellion went on to build the massive digital-surveillance state with such centralized access to computers everywhere is in itself a fascinating study. And the less said about their contributions to climate change, the better...

      I like how these two frame it - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1HpkCiOaiI

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  7. "Satish, your blog seems to perish, it seems to go extinct, commenters are getting rare... why is it?"

    This subject is exhausted to a level where everyone who has the capacity to deal with it has done so . If there are individuals who are still capable they can educate themselves by the endless information out there We all know now that the gig is up . The trends are set and there is no reversing of the process . If there would be there would be masses coming into the blogosphere and there would be a huge social movement developing trying to change things ... Instead we got Donald Trump . That shows that this situation is now on its unchanging course AKA collapse . This blog and others dieing is just a reconfirmation of that . There is no more information
    no more discussion needed on the subject maybe some observation for entertainment value

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  8. So what to do when seeing that collapse is upon us?
    By no means is the subject exhausted. We continue to live is it not?

    Keeping one’s head under the sand is one way to avoid the stench of societal behaviors in times of crisis. But it does nothing to solve the crisis that is responsible for the rotting of societal culture. Seen the predicament which humanity is facing in Late-Modernity it is highly irresponsible to continue keeping one’s head under the sand. This is no time for political correctness any longer. Thinking individuals have the responsibility to speak out and act accordingly. There is no denying the responsibility of science in our current predicament. But this does not mean that we have to burn science. The least we should be trying to do now is to understand where the whole thing went wrong and draw conclusions that could help clarify the path of societies into the future; if there is a future. Having participated in the creation of the mess of power and of Modernity we owe future generations some explanations...

    I’m a realist I consider that the future is not a given. But I recognize that, even if we knew with total certainty that the future outcome for the human species was extinction, we still would have no other alternative but to live till extinction occurs. What I mean to say is that the darkness of the potential outcome of Power and Modernity has to be balanced by the beauty of life itself. We have no other valid choice but to live… so why not live as happily as we can by offering our thoughts and actions as gifts to the others around us. I see the predicament of living with this knowledge as the best of reasons to definitively abandon “taking” behaviors in favor of “giving” behaviors.

    During the last five to ten Milena power societies have imposed “taking economies” on all of us and the result has been a few thousand years of misery for “we the people”. Why should we not try to practice the “gift economies” that were the way non-power tribal societies produced their inter-personal exchanges? What can we lose? For sure we would lose the ideology of power but who is going to miss power? In return we would definitely gain the tribal happiness of living in abundance that was the “primitives” life condition. Who is going to object to that?

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    2. Excellent comment Lao Dan. I was almost going to respond to the previous comment by saying that maybe everyone who would have cared all finally saw one of Guy McPherson's lectures, and subsequently took his advice to give up and return to living a life of self gratification. ( :D )

      I admire your suggestion that we continue fighting the good fight, even if (and especially if) the outcome looks to be a forgone conclusion. Nobody knows for certain what the future will look like, what pockets of life might survive, or even for sure what the outcome of the current environmental crisis will actually look like in the end. Sticking one's head back in the sand simply guarantees defeat and stops any further insights into finding any possible better ways of structuring human society in the future should that chance ever arrive.

      I agree with looking for where things went wrong in an attempt to maybe map a better structure of human organization ... especially regarding psychology. I think Satish also expresses seeing value in the analysis of what might have gone wrong, in an effort to better understand what could possibly be done right ... just in case there is an opportunity to employ better ways of living in the future. Once again, we don't know for certain what the future will look like ... nobody can know that. If we give up now, we miss all opportunities for changes that might have played a role in shaping a better future should that chance ever arrive (maybe even unexpectedly.) Quitting accomplishes nothing, and that IS a certainty.

      I was saddened by McPherson's NBL blog where most attempts at analyzing human behavior and psychology retrospectively were met with ridicule ... with the consensus that our predicament was simply a forgone conclusion and always was an inevitability. Wow, talk about defeated. I often reflected on how this attitude was being expressed by a culture (predominantly American) that is renowned for having very little awareness of other cultures around the planet, and very little awareness of other ways of living or thinking other than their own. In America, it seems many people subconsciously think they are the best example that the species has to offer. That if they couldn't get it right, then nobody else possibly could have either.

      But that's just more American hubris on display, a result of the patriotic nationalism that was drilled into their heads by the social engineers of their culture since childhood. If anything, Americans are maybe the worst example of human organization, one based on feeding the ego until it grows into a self absorbed psychopathy of the self. (My country is the best, my sports team is the best, we should be the police of the world ... etc, etc, etc.)

      We should never stop chipping away at this complex problem, even if that be just intellectually, if that's all we can do at the moment. I watch the effect on other blogs whenever the McPherson followers pipe up with their fatalism and admonishing negativity. It's like a mental illness, one that quickly spreads despondency to the others. I've watched how infectious that attitude can be as the vibration of the rest of the bloggers becomes drastically lowered by these people. I've watched the bitterness take hold like a wave of defeating negativity. It's the wrong attitude to take, in my opinion. It has a bad effect on people very quickly (and quite subconsciously.) It actually seems to me to be just another symptom of the wetiko psychosis expressing itself.

      Giving up in the face of (even certain) travesty is the ultimate expression of attachment to outcomes ... that if there's nothing left in it for a person, then they should give up trying, even just in principle. They always seem to gravitate to encouraging others to join them in this attitude too (safety and assurance in numbers maybe.) That's not playing the game very well at all. It will only lead to missed opportunities for change should that chance arise.

      Thanks for your post Lao Dan. :) and <3

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  9. Amen Amen Amen I dont think running around in a penissheat will do it for us anymore .sure Not for me . Those are old times we have passed those no need to go back . The universe is not going back to some state of plasma or big bang moment ok Maybe at the very end for an instant . But thats it. Humanity went thru all the stages of development tribal Hunter gatherer , Agricultural and now industrial civilisation , Why would you go revisit stupid survivalist mode caveman culture ?(Of i recon .. Actually they are doing that in stupid reality tv shows isnt that enough for you ) No my friend "This is the End" as the song goes
    http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/doors/theend.html

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    1. " stupid survivalist mode caveman culture "

      ???

      Like as in " them dumb Indians "

      I think you focus on the physical aspects of life only. How about how those cultures behaved psychologically, what their motivators were, how they processed thought?

      You seem to think this has all been an upwards progression and maybe ignore the idea that devolution is also possible, that things went backwards in moderninity. Maybe those were better times back then, and not 'stupid' times.

      I admit ... they had no XBoxes or 57' Chevy's. But was that really progress though? Or was it just European psychopathy and unfettered ego lifestyle?

      These are things worth exploring.

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    2. "The ads always talk about how nice it would be to maybe help your grandkids with school ... but they always skipped over mentioning the direct kids of the elderly folks being targeted by these schemes. The kids are the one's who inherit your home as a debt ... payable upon your death. It's inter-generational suicide, and it's been wrapped up in a 'story' that says your kids are horrible cretins who deserve your animosity."

      Very enlightening explanation.

      "... often reflected on how this attitude was being expressed by a culture (predominantly American) that is renowned for having very little awareness of other cultures around the planet, and very little awareness of other ways of living or thinking other than their own. In America, it seems many people subconsciously think they are the best example that the species has to offer. That if they couldn't get it right, then nobody else possibly could have either."

      This explains perfectly what was so dismaying about NBL.

      Lao Dan,

      Loved the points you made. Just trying to barge through here, missing responses that I could have made to others.


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    3. Here's a snippet of what I'm trying to write, going slow as molasses... But since it touches on some of what's been said here, here goes. I'm trying to change the world, you see. :-) And I'm addressing The whole of America, which has so much power to implement that change. I believe that the broad society must and will change. I speak of issues that are for everyone to consider, discard it though they may.

      --------------

      PLANNING-AS-ART IS LIKE MAKING A PATCHWORK QUILT


      The Quilt Aspect: For a long time now, I've been thinking of the world as a patchwork quilt. Each patch would be some kind of jurisdiction. And since art contributes to its time and place, and often has universal value or significance for civilization too, a patchwork quilt world vision can be a work of art. Art has meaning and purpose, whether intended or through default. I propose an art movement that takes the entire planetary sphere as its purview. Since we cannot shape such a complex entity from the top down, we must instead work from the bottom up, starting within our immediate sphere of influence. Generally speaking, that sphere of influence centers on our local jurisdiction--the place that is prescribed in the world of planning as the smallest boundaried geographic area with zoning or other governance-related prescriptions for managing its affairs. But based on modern communications, our spheres of influence can incorporate many other entities throughout the world. Questions then arise as to what constitutes a patch of the global quilt. Our actual physical survival depends on the ground we're standing on, so the more locally based are our creative efforts, the more likely we are to survive. Meanwhile, our broader global networks could form the threads that bind the patches of the global quilt together. So then, the mover, the artist, in all of this is not just the piece of land we stand on, and neither is it the networks beyond that. The mover and artist is the single human person. That single human person is sovereign, and is perhaps a single patch of the earth's patchwork quilt.. It's complicated.

      Matters of Urgency for the Individual: I will NOT take no for an answer. Those who don’t like it can lump it. Yes, I do think individual leadership and vision are required. In my case, it’s not even personal. I behave the way I do because that’s just my way of being. I couldn’t and wouldn’t change it. I do not care whether I get any takers or only blank stares…although I can get pissed off from being misunderstood. I should do it this way or that way to succeed, they say. And they are lucky I don’t have a magic wand to make them disappear. No bloody freaking way am I going to do anything THEIR right way. I content myself with doing it all the wrong way…because I don’t give a rat’s ass about anything other than what motivates me--or doesn't--from the inside.

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    4. Guy McPherson is a notorious biology conservationist professor who believes civilization, and the human species along with it, are facing near-term extinction: "The answer must included beginning immediately, the decommissioning of all 400+ nuclear power plants worldwide, so that when civilization collapses sometime in the next 10 years, those reactors don't meltdown catastrophically, poisoning the earth with radiation for the few species that survive the 6th extinction, caused by the greed and ignorance of humans." I don't in the least bit share McPherson's prediction of doom. Mostly because I am guided by intuition, and intuition has not alerted me to the prospect of near term extinction for human kind. We simply have to evolve, and I INSIST that we evolve. I most emphatically will not take no for an answer.


      We Shall Prevail: The dominant global-paradigm civilization depends on infinite growth. That would be nice, were it not for the impossibility to grow infinitely on a finite planet. While it grows, anything outside of the civilization is consumed and diminished. Our civilization may well have already ended, while still running on the fumes, a faux civilization meant to placate the masses and drag out the semblance of normality for as long as possible. We are experiencing severe depletion of minerals, water, topsoil, energy, wildlife , forestry, as well as disruption to economy, climate, population... It is a perfect storm of system failures. The human endeavor is like a liquid circling the drain. But we shall prevail. Not because of any new technologies or "sensible" political actions, but through "divine madness of the soul."

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    5. As Chris Hedges reports, Reinholdt Niebuhr (whose phrase that is) wrote that "'nothing but madness will do battle with malignant power and ‘spiritual wickedness in high places.’ This sublime madness, as Niebuhr understood, is dangerous, but it is vital. Without it, 'truth is obscured.' And Niebuhr also knew that traditional liberalism was a useless force in moments of extremity. Liberalism, Niebuhr said, 'lacks the spirit of enthusiasm, not to say fanaticism, which is so necessary to move the world out of its beaten tracks. It is too intellectual and too little emotional to be an efficient force in history.'” A faith in the human person transcendent ability to thrive is my deeply, apparently unchangeable, perspective on life. Like Rastafarians through the first half of the movement, we must "find a way out of no way." Creativity, imagination, the artist's magic do have roles to play.


      The Land Planning Aspect: But the quilt is a very limited analogy for a patchwork-quilt approach to land use planning throughout the planet. It isn't clear to me that long- and medium-term future conditions (if they even materialize) will allow for a global network of any sort. I hope there will be one, and I herein pledge my support for such a future. It will require the utmost creativity and imagination. It will also require wisdom and experience. It requires as much going backward as it does going forward. It requires the understanding that land is sacred. In understanding that land is sacred, we must return all the stolen indigenous land we can, for the indigenous peoples knew the land was sacred, while that knowledge gave them the ability to evolve with it over millennia. I've been focused on land, and have come to see a commonsense reason to view it as sacred and deterministic. For instance, there is no possible way to maintain clean air if we cut down all the forests and pave over all the grassland. Over a long period of searching, I now have a better appreciation for the indigenous narrative of sacred land. I don't think it's divisible from air. And nothing about the physical planet can be divisible either.

      That view makes it easy to conceptualize land use planning. Not being divisible means jurisdictions, including nation states, are invalid for the land use planner, even thought they must be dealt with. Land use must therefore be totalitarian. It must continually seek to bring every place together as one. It must therefore be tantamount to a new, global religion. It must be a divine madness of the soul.

      o talk further about planning requires us to consider matters of urgency: watersheds, viewsheds, equity, self-sufficiency, pedestrian orientation, planning for a world without money, climate disruption, conservation, saving everything from loss or demolition, building in food production to everything, cottage industry. It must see the spirit of things, it must interpret everything, it must redefine tourism


      Maintenance: Since I'm a trained and experienced art conservator, I know something about maintaining things in proper order. Your (Satish's) example of painting the Golden Gate (GG) bridge is a very good one. We needn't and perhaps shouldn't let existing things deteriorate. Leaving them alone (for me as a restorer) means keeping them as close to original condition as possible. The maintenance schedule of GG is the perfect one. We are maintaining its utility while preserving the embedded energy that went to make it originally. There's embedded energy in every artifact created. Keeping every artifact from decay maintains the embedded energy in it, precluding the need for more acquisition of destructive energy and environmental treasures. IMO, embedded energy is the cheapest and most benign form of energy there is. If we make innovative use of what already exists, we create an economic order (temporary or otherwise) that minimizes the destruction of land through sprawl, mining, etc. It is also a way of leaving the indigenous alone.

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    6. That Papau author speaks of the integration of the indigenous world with the modern world. He tried to clarify. The modern world needs to know the indigenous world exists, but yet manage to leave it alone. The modern world can leave the indigenous world alone by containing itself within the areas which it already occupies. No new roads. No new construction on open land. That is one way of looking at leaving things alone. I'm not talking about leaving things to decay (although that could be OK in rare circumstances--Chernobyl, for instance). The US is extremely fortunate to have indigenous nations within its borders. It is in its interests to see those nations free and strong. In an era of declining energy, tourism to those nations (they having recaptured their history) opens up a new economic paradigm. Suddenly there is an alternative to flying all about the planet in atmosphere-deadly jet planes. We have the greatest opportunity to learn and grow through travel, while never having to depart the shores of America. As America does, so can other places in the world, for every place is sacred, every war torn ruin tells a story, has its tragic, indispensable lesson.


      Travel: My wife wants to travel. I don't. But out of love for her, I'd do some traveling, whatever our very puny funds could allow. I feel bad for her, deeply guilty that she has given me so much while I'm too poor and immobile to provide her adventure. I've proposed driving around at specified times, looking more at regional sites that we don't even manage to see now. So it depends on the car, on affordable gas, on roads, on order.







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    7. Lao and LWA, your comments are music to my ears. Especially these parts:

      "The least we should be trying to do now is to understand where the whole thing went wrong and draw conclusions that could help clarify the path of societies into the future; if there is a future. Having participated in the creation of the mess of power and of Modernity we owe future generations some explanations..."

      "You seem to think this has all been an upwards progression and maybe ignore the idea that devolution is also possible, that things went backwards in moderninity. Maybe those were better times back then, and not 'stupid' times.

      I admit ... they had no XBoxes or 57' Chevy's. But was that really progress though? Or was it just European psychopathy and unfettered ego lifestyle?

      These are things worth exploring."

      ----

      While I point out the dire predicament we modern civilized humans find ourselves in these days, and sometimes comment on the nature of that predicament, that is not all I do on this blog or in interactions with friends. My primary goal, in fact, has always been to piece together the puzzle that explains how we got here... there are many aspects to this historic story, if one were to lay it all out as much as it's possible, as much as it is within one's capacity. After all, we get to deal with "epistemicide" - the killing off of specific ways of knowing. Epistemology being the study of how we gain knowledge. How do we know what we know? There are and have been many ways of accessing information and knowledge. Some of the better ways, unfortunately, are not in common use anymore and are lost to us... so we have limits to how much of this puzzle we can figure out. But it's important that we try... but let me speak for myself... it's important to me that I try... Why? To answer it simply, it's a search for authenticity. Modern culture, what we call civilization, has saddled us with a lot of fake stories and inaccurate information. A conscious person puts in the effort to come out of under the many layers of falsities while looking for what's true, what's original, what's timeless, what's important, what's beautiful, what's worth celebrating. The more I find out about the culture that raised me, the more I gravitate toward the teachings of pre-civilization cultures, or those of indigenous peoples living today. They most certainly know what's more authentic than what we have in modern culture.

      Some people I talk to say that since we cannot know the entire truth, given our human limits, why look for any truth at all? A friend of mine often refers to the fact that the Earth is spinning so fast that we are traveling at a speed of thousands of miles an hour through space, and draws the conclusion that we are too small to know what's going on. Perhaps, we are too limited to know it all, but we do have the capacity to know some of it... to know what we need to know to become more conscious. The Universe has given us the means, the brains, to figure some of it out. It's a bad excuse to say that since we cannot know it all, we don't need to know anything. That's a cop-out. It's the kind of escapism that has come to mark the modern civilized man. My work has been to find ways to be as different from the average modern civilized person as possible... because the modern civilized person, I have concluded, is rather stunted developmentally. He is a child in terms of maturity. He's ignorant and unconscious.

      Getting out of the trap of civilization, mentally and psychologically, is worth spending time and effort on. What is a better way to spend one's time these days, in the face of the existential crises that are swirling around us? Living it up, giving up, business as usual and other possibilities don't appeal to me!

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    8. Just to clarify, it's not just the brains that the Universe has gifted us humans... that's actually less than half the whole enchilada. There's the power of intuition. Unfortunately, intuition is informed by our cultural stories and one must be cautious to rely solely on the gut to direct one's life. The logical brain and the intuitive gut are supposed to work together to build each other up as one pursues authenticity, the essence, the Truth. That's how I feel. That's how I think :)

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    9. Everything is formed by our cultural stories. There are nothing but stories.

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  10. Comments like these make me laugh and cry at the same time
    "The US is extremely fortunate to have indigenous nations within its borders. It is in its interests to see those nations free and strong. In an era of declining energy, tourism to those nations (they having recaptured their history) opens up a new economic paradigm. Suddenly there is an alternative to flying all about the planet in atmosphere-deadly jet planes. We have the greatest opportunity to learn and grow through travel, while never having to depart the shores of America. As America does, so can other places in the world, for every place is sacred, every war torn ruin tells a story, has its tragic, indispensable lesson. "
    Ignorance combined with stupid at this stage of extinction process 7.5 billion population ,ressource, food, energy, topsoil decline loss scarcity etc the list is endless . Only an ignorant moron can dream of some sort of native eco-turism

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    1. Etyere Petyere,

      I've endured a lot of name calling since going on NBL, and since the days of Ulvfugl (who was at least intelligent) have fortunately been spared too many direct hits. Ulv didn't run me off NBL, and I doubt that you will run me off kuku. (I've been away from it and will be so again--just glad to touch base and see the new post.

      The posters on kuku are insightful, brilliant people, but somehow haven't seen fit to insult me all this time, so why you imagine I'll put up with your name calling is puzzling.

      If you want to be useful, please be kind enough to edit the paragraph of mine, addressing the specifif issues I cite in a way you consider more realistic. I admit to seeing possibilities through rose colored lenses (it's sort of helpful in my business), and I could use a little help for when I mention prospects that are physically impossible.

      I'm not sure that indigenous eco-tourism (in the context of public education of the tourists) is "worse" than casinos, which could be seen as a non ecotoutist enterprise quite common among tribal nations now. It might be. I don't know. There's nothing worse than fauning "natives" selling junk to white people. Totally deplorable, and I'd rather see casinos that bring some dignity and real money. There is something called "voluntourism" where the white people go to get an education as well as help the communities in practical ways. I don't know that this has to be negative.

      Thanks for reading too.

      Delete
    2. Thanks for posting some of your writing Artleads.

      Your thoughts about maintenance struck a real chord with me. Planned obsolescence offended me deeply when everything went that way. It's one of the greediest ideas capitalism ever came up with ... so very, very wasteful of finite resources. And the worn out stuff just goes into the landfill.

      Why aren't there grease nipples anymore on my u-joints on my driveshaft? If you grease them regularly, u-joints can last a lifetime and NEVER wear out.

      Because it creates work in the shop and creates an economy for parts makers, that's why. No more backyard handyman in the modern world. $10 worth of good grease becomes $400 worth of repairs in the shop ... and a $200 towing fee as well when you snap a u-joint, usually in the -40C weather. It's actually hazardous too and puts people in peril.

      And my aunt has a light bulb on her front porch at the farm with a thick filament in it that still works perfectly ... and it's been in there since the 1950's, never burns out. Now, light bulbs are made to last X number of hours, and then they burn out ... because of the hair size filament they purposely use. Just to sell more of them and waste resources.

      It's the sickness of capitalism.

      ...

      Etyere Petyere,

      I remember well how rude you were to some people over at NBL. Really, really mean sometimes. I didn't like it much. You must be an American.

      And hey, nice hair ... do you call that an 'asshat' ?

      I have long hair too. But mine looks good.

      :D :D :D

      Ya, we all got the end of the world memo, same as you did. We just handle it differently.

      "Here the end of the day has come. The light of the setting sun calls to mind the fact that life is transitory and conditional. Caught in this external bondage, men are usually robbed of their inner freedom as well. The sense of the transitoriness of life impels them to uninhibited revelry in order to enjoy life while it lasts, or else they yield to melancholy and spoil the precious time by lamenting the approach of old age. Both attitudes are wrong. To the superior man it makes no difference whether death comes early or late. He cultivates himself, awaits his allotted time, and in this way secures his fate."

      I Ching (Tao)


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    3. LWA,

      Thank you so much! Here's a little something I exchanged on our finite world today. Keep well.

      Jeremy890 says:
      December 19, 2016 at 7:52 am

      Much gratitude for your insights JT Roberts…apparently we have a shift in mindset perception
      Wabi-sabi can change our perception of the world to the extent that a chip or crack in a vase makes it more interesting and gives the object greater meditative value. Similarly materials that age such as bare wood, paper and fabric become more interesting as they exhibit changes that can be observed over

      Wabi-sabi (侘寂?) represents Japanese aesthetics and a Japanese world view centered on the acceptance of transience and imperfection. The aesthetic is sometimes described as one of beauty that is “imperfect, impermanent, and incomplete”.[2] It is a concept derived from the Buddhist teaching of the three marks of existence (三法印 sanbōin?), specifically impermanence (無常 mujō?), suffering (苦 ku?) and emptiness or absence of self-nature (空 kū?).

      We in the West will have plenty of opportunities go practice Wabi Sabi!



      Artleads Says:

      My artwork is built entirely on these principles. But I'm also trained to conserve and restore art--the terms, conserve, preserve get confusing even for me too. Maybe conserve is more what you do to keep the object from falling apart, and preserve is what you do to keep it in a given state. And then there's "restore" to add to the bargain!

      I believe the Japanese didn't just allow things to fall apart, then left them to fall apart more, but that they conserved and preserved as well. They really seemed to take care of things--floors clean enough to eat off of, Zen gardens continually raked, nothing out of place...I would like to be corrected on this, since what you describe above seems more like letting go and not trying to save the object.

      My current thought is that things fall apart because they aren't preserved, but that this falling apart, if arrested somewhat, is the essence of beauty. The most beautiful metal for me is a car that's been crumpled by impact. I know people were injured and lives were lost, but that doesn't make the vehicle less beautiful. So is it that the embodiment of all the trials and insults of life and deatgh, reflected in them, is what maximizes the beauty in things?



      Delete
  11. "My primary goal, in fact, has always been to piece together the puzzle that explains how we got here... there are many aspects to this historic story, if one were to lay it all out as much as it's possible, as much as it is within one's capacity."

    You have strong analytical skills. And I know you're applying them to a world you see as real. So there must be a real universe somewhere. The smartest people I know of suggest that it's infinite. But how can an analytical mind, in pursuit of the real, understand that? Here's a universal reality that has no bearing in space as I understand it. Space, for me, is not something that goes on forever in all directions. Just to even BEGIN to fathom that makes me throw in the towel already. Why even waste my time with it, when there are so many other seeming realities closer to me to deal with? Why am I here? Not a clue. Am I going to study forever, sifting through the meaning of knowledge, and even the meaning behind that? In fact, I think it would be presumptuous of me to even try. What I'm clearer about is that we on this planet can't help but change the world with our every breath or thought, and so we might as well intend a change that we would prefer to see. We have creative capacity, we have, much of the time, some innate sense of right and wrong, some realities seem better for us than others, we are guided by what has come down to us, we have insight, judgment, aesthetic intuition, experiential lessons. Trying to analyze these once and for all strikes me as less preferable than accepting them as guides and selecting from among or synthesizing them to take the next step. What should guide this process of selection. I would say, your conscience.

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    1. Artleads,

      You said:

      "Trying to analyze these once and for all strikes me as less preferable than accepting them as guides and selecting from among or synthesizing them to take the next step. What should guide this process of selection. I would say, your conscience."

      The analytical mind is the obedient servant and faithful friend of conscience. It's not for the analytical mind to understand everything. I actually believe that the ultimate realization that arises when we take the rational approach to its final conclusions, to its logical end point, is that the rational process has limits. This is not a view shared by some scientists who believe that the entire Universe is comprehensible and understandable through the logical rational thought process. It's just a matter of time and coming up with the right tool set, they claim. This view is a case of bad Scientism... Science gone too far, empiricism run amok.

      Having said that, let's not discount the utility and power of the rational process. Let me give you an example... I have a friend who frequently travels to Tibet for what he believes is charitable work. He and his wife have made several trips to this remote high-altitude place to build a school that teaches English and other subjects to the village kids. My friend believes this is a project that benefits the people of this remote village. His intuition tells him he's doing a good thing for the world. What's wrong with this picture? Why is his intuition not working properly? Why are his good intentions not actually creating good for the people he's affecting? You see, my friend, a wealthy urban Westerner is steeped in the stories of civilization that raised him. Despite being trained as an engineer, the 75-yr old hasn't spent the time to understand and analyze his role in this world. I recommended he read "Ancient Futures", which is the story of a small community in the very region he travels to, how the community used to live until the 60s when civilization and modernity began making inroads and infecting the people with the Wetiko disease. My friend, unfortunately, is a carrier of the disease of civilization, unbeknownst to him. Teaching English and Science to these kids takes them away from their roots and their culture and their lands, which they have called home for hundreds if not thousands of years. We civilized people don't need to teach them anything. If anything, we need to learn from them. My friend hasn't read the book and he continues his "charitable" work, participating in the destruction of this remote community.

      Our intuition is guided by our stories. It's not always a direct connection to the divine. It can be, but in our times, it is more often not. The rational brain is the way out of this quandary... Careful study and analysis tells us how we have become slaves to our stories and shows us how our intuitive skills have become compromised. The analytical mind and the intuitive gut are supposed to work together. One without the other leads to what Mark Passio refers to as extreme brain imbalance. Sadly, many people today are in a state of imbalance... either extreme left brained masculine imbalance or extreme right brained feminine imbalance. It doesn't matter if it's a man or a woman... either can go into one of these forms of imbalance.

      My writing and thinking might appear overly analytical to you... but my friends in the tech world might see it as a bunch of woo, lacking citations and data, lacking rigor and logic and overly opinionated. It's all relative, I think :)

      Delete
  12. "After all, we get to deal with "epistemicide" - the killing off of specific ways of knowing. Epistemology being the study of how we gain knowledge. How do we know what we know? There are and have been many ways of accessing information and knowledge. Some of the better ways, unfortunately, are not in common use anymore and are lost to us... so we have limits to how much of this puzzle we can figure out. But it's important that we try... but let me speak for myself... it's important to me that I try... Why? To answer it simply, it's a search for authenticity. Modern culture, what we call civilization, has saddled us with a lot of fake stories and inaccurate information. A conscious person puts in the effort to come out of under the many layers of falsities while looking for what's true, what's original, what's timeless, what's important, what's beautiful, what's worth celebrating. The more I find out about the culture that raised me, the more I gravitate toward the teachings of pre-civilization cultures, or those of indigenous peoples living today. They most certainly know what's more authentic than what we have in modern culture."

    But you can't get everyone to see "what is a better way of understanding" the way you see it. You will get other analytical people who see that in respectively different way, and you'll spend your life discussing the issue. But what we seem to need here on earth is what to do about our dying planet. The question, then, is not so much about who is right in their argument, but whether the earth can be helped to recover or not.

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    1. There's no easy solution to our problem, is there? You talk as if I am asking people to learn Calculus or read "World Systems Analysis". What I'm really doing is that I'm simply pointing to where I think we can find some wisdom, and that is the indigenous worldview. It's nothing to do with sophisticated analysis or quantum Physics. It's about respect for other Earthlings, a slower pace of life, simplicity, re-connecting with our Earth Mother and the idea of the sacred. I have mentioned Animism, the primitive and original religion that considers everything around us as conscious. What's so analytical about this stuff?

      I do take the effort to break down concepts and ideas and that process might appear overly analytical but in the end, it delivers us to a most primitive set of ideas (and I use the word "primitive" here in a positive sense).

      Maybe I'm missing something... Civilized people are not good listeners and I am no exception. Please explain, Artleads!

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    2. It seems possible that animals lack wetiko a little bit because they can't tie themselves up with words. In similar manner, assuming we can find enlightenment through analysis (based on "symbolic" language), will tend to mislead. You will have a different view, while I don't see the possibility of explaining our world with language. So I wander around without knowing anything, trying to sense and feel my way around...quite like an animal it seems at times.

      I shared a lot of stuff from "my writing" here just now. I consider what I have to say to be quite reasoned, but reason is merely the handmaiden of inner "understanding," at which I've been working all my life. The writing clarified something for me: I was able to turn myself into the land, sense what it must "feel," and speak as if I were its voice. That experience simplifies everything. When I communicate, I try to see it like giving a performance--reciting a poem, singing a song, aiming for the heart instead of the head. I do believe that humans are primarily guided by emotions, and if you want to reach them, you must seek for that direct avenue to the heart.

      Delete
  13. LWA . Oh really ? My hair ? ! Is this a beauty contest ?! That explains it . You must be blond . I didn`t know ! And you look beautiful compared to me . Good for you . Whith the reservation that the jury is still out on that . But i am not in it for that so even a loss in that regard would`n faze me . And That will also explain the rest . I know its a cliche but it feels pretty good to be right on the money with your ignorance and stupidity of Bucolic Native bliss eco tourism . Now i have only one choice left either laugh or cry . I choose to laugh . Hahaha ... what a joke

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    1. Goodness sakes ... another racist American, how original.

      Yawn.

      Yes, it was a pretty funny joke I made, wasn't it. (Rhetorical question there.)

      So now you're calling ME ignorant and stupid are you, and not just Artleads ... or are you calling everyone who posts here ignorant and stupid morons?

      You must be missing NBL. You do know that McFearson has a forum for people of your persuasion, right? Maybe you can google it.

      And in truth I don't really care what you look like. It was just an amusing way to call you an asshat. Although, I actually am considerably better looking than you. You should really buy a hairbrush though. Hey, maybe you could make your own brush ... out of toothpicks or something.

      ( :D :D :D )

      Carry on with your lazy minded lamenting. :(

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    2. Or, you could check your nasty attitude at the door, stop calling people names, and make an intelligible argument about whatever it is your rambling on about, and I'd happily stop abusing you. Can you make a case for your position, rather than just saying something or someone is stupid without presenting an argument as to why you think that? All I've heard so far is silliness, so you got silliness back.

      If you can do that, I'll stop making jokes about your funny hair ... ( ;) )

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    3. Let me try and explain something, since, in spite of your questionable grammar and spelling and odd sense of where capitals belong in written language, you chose to use such a specific word as 'bucolic' in your comment.

      Our occasional focus on other cultures here at kuku, past or present, has less to do with where people live(d), what kind of physical shelters they live(d) in, how they fish(ed), or anything 'physical' like that. We're not idly waxing poetic about 'country living' as the term 'bucolic' implies.

      We're looking into and exploring the mental makeup of people, and often contrasting that to the hostile arrogance and megalomania of modern societies ... such as can be seen in the history of the people of America ... where lying is considered an asset, hostility and aggression is seen as an acceptable tool for achieving one's ends, and where people have become so lost that they can't even discern right from wrong anymore as they beat the living shit out of each other over a sports game and tear up the earth without regard even for their own well being, let alone the well being of anyone else.

      We look a lot into the human psyche here, which is something typical Americans do very little of ... self reflect on their own psyche.

      It's not about imagining pitching a tent and being out in the countryside. In my own words, it's about understanding the wetiko virus, why and how it spread through the world, and how to possibly correct this tragedy that America has inflicted on the planet through its horrific abuse and domination of other people and other cultures around the planet in order to achieve it's own ends, killing itself now in the process (and the rest of us too along with them now.)

      Bucolic doesn't really apply. That would seem to be just what you're able to glean from our discussions, if you've even ever read any of them. This is something NBL people (many of them anyway) were unable to even begin to accept ... that maybe the way Americans think mentally is not how everybody throughout history always thought or behaved ... like selfish, violent aggressors living in fear.

      Get it? Or do you still think we're dreaming about physically camping and fishing with our gramps and grams out in nature here?

      We're usually comparing and contrasting aspects of psychology from cultures past and present, not necessarily their physical lifestyles at all. This is something McPherson paid little or no attention to ... the psychology of the human species.

      There's really nothing bucolic about it, unless you're thinking only in terms of physical living arrangements.

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    4. EP: Can I ask how old you are? You look very young. Are you an angry young man?

      Delete
    5. Yes i am a racist I acknowledge race and attribute certain treats to them . The Germans the Swiss are punctual . The Chinese Japanese are good at math and have small penises. The Jews whatever the fuck they are about good at making themselves hate by the rest of the world .Also have supposedly funny noses and ears and The negroes have black skin tone and like fat blond white chicks , And you cant believe one word what roma-gypsy people are saying etc
      yes i am an angry young man , But I don`t have race hatred. i take them as they come . You cant change people you adjust The natives of north america have eliminated the mega fauna before Europeans arrived and they have been beating the living shit out of each other any good occasion . That`s just a myth that they were some peaceful nature loving nurturing people. Whoever believes that is just as uninformed as you are .. Yes uninformed. That should be politically correct not hurting feelings so you don`t have to run back to mommy crying because somebody called you stupid .. Just uninformed. Can you live with uninformed ? Just tell me . If this is to strong of a medicine for you i will try to think of something else . Let me know . ... It is just unfortunate for them that the euro guys got here before they could advance to the level where they could have defended themselves or the Europeans were lucky being a few hundred years ahead technologically otherwise it would have been the other way around . Nothing to see here folks no native paradise move on . This is just how things are . you just don`t know it because you are this little spoiled suburban chick . Something happened 10.000 or something years ago what changed human psychology and this is running its course and it can`t be turned back it can`t be redeemed or fixed to what it was . Deal with it . Mcpherson or not extinction is the rule as much your person is so special and precious that it should be saved and preserved for eternity you most probably will see its end and not Bucolic native paradise

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    6. EP,

      Thanks for sharing. I know Gail Zawaki, Kathy C, Lidia and others on NBL thought about the inevitability of NTE based on their concept of human nature and thermodynamics. Which makes me wonder why women on NBL were so identifiable with that outlook.

      So is it human nature that brought us here, or was it bad racial genes? The Third Reich thought it was the latter, and tried but failed to wipe out those "bad" genes. Should they have succeeded? If so, what do you think prevented their success?

      -------------

      Satish,

      Although we did not come to much of a conclusion, I feel that the last 5 years in the NBL circles have been spent trying to figure our why we got here. Ulvfugl was like a big bang of knowledge and curiosity (as well as rage). I think he came to the view that the universe wasn't so much a "thing" as "information." That view may correspond to Tom Campbell's "scientific" work into reality...his belief in a kind of virtual reality cluster of some 9 or so universes that were all VR in their respective ways. That sounds about as plausible as anything else to me, while leaving me as mystified as anything else in the end.

      Age might have something to do with it, but I liked what New Ager Wayne Dyer had to say about purpose. Let's not die with our music still inside us. At this stage of the game, I'm trying to express my music--partly through trying to write about it. Essentially, I was born a crime in a world where I didn't belong. So nothing about it is right or normal for me. Even if it was futile, I'd have to try and change it.

      To LWA's point on maintenance, I see one very major trend to change, which is that we live in a throwaway culture. I don't just mean plastic bottles and styrofoam cups. Maybe it's that civilization never had the information we do now to be able to see the world in a whole systems way. Since the dawn of civilization we have been discarding knowledge at a phenomenal rate, wiping out one set of peoples and cultures after another. Civilization seemed so unquestionably superior to all that was destroyed. Of course, that destruction has gone on steroids since the last 200 years, and at warp speed since 1950. I believe languages go extinct on a daily basis, and we know about species! I see a lot of this as having to do with movement and behavior on the land.

      Rather than trying to find out precisely how we got here, I can recommend one simple prescription for our woes: stop the whole charade in some way not akin to a freight train running into a wall. Take this runnaway train and switch the tracks so it goes off somewhere up a hill that eventually slows it down.

      The only unwavering covenant for me is the land: it must not be carved up, compressed, chopped up, bulldozed, or disrespected as merely a thing to be exploded or turned into real estate. I'll stick with that even if we all die as a result. The Native people in my state, with all their faults, talk about the land as sacred. Nobody else does. We are doing a (supposedly) sustainable plan for my county, and the word "sacred" does not appear in it. This tells you what an extreme difference in world views the anglo culture has to the indigenous one. It's all to do with the land.

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    7. EP,

      Ah yes, the old American story of 'if we hadn't caged them up and dismembered their women and children in front of them first, they would've just done it to us eventually ... eat or be eaten.'

      That's why the first explorers to arrive in Western Canada were shown how to survive through the harsh winter, how to get over the mountains to the west coast, and many other things about living on this continent ... by the native people who took them in, welcomed them, and treated them like one of their own the whole time they were with them, and asked for nothing from them in exchange for this magnanimous service. That's straight out of the journals that these early explorers wrote and left behind as accounts of the earliest experiences among these 'savages.'

      If what you just wrote wasn't so cliche and representative of the typical story most American white people carry around in their silly misinformed heads as a 'story', I'd bother to try and lift you out of your ridiculous slumber. However, your head seems to be quite a mess, so I'm not even going to bother conversing with you after this. It's sort of ironic how I focused in on your messy hair as almost a metaphor for the state of your mind and the information you choose to carry around in it ... a mess.

      "psychology ... running its course and it can`t be turned back it can`t be redeemed or fixed to what it was."

      You're so uninformed about what you haven't seen for yourself, that it's almost distressing. Of course people's consciousness can change, even to the point of rendering them with a nearly opposite version to their previous personality traits. This is no secret ... it's exactly what the social engineers have done to YOU. Seen it, been it, and make a living now introducing these changes into people's lives on a daily basis. That's not hearsay or opinion either ... I witness mental transformations in people regularly. So, I'm sorry, you're just hopelessly steeped in your religious like beliefs about life, and display the arrogance and stubborn certainty about what you think that's very typical of someone raised inside of the American lie. Simply indoctrinated with a story, and quite on purpose too.

      ...

      Satish,

      Take a look at this fellow. A perfect example of how cultural stories inform our perceptions about existence. This person has bought into the American story, and it's created exactly what this story intends to create in it's victims ... the perfect bully. I watched him lash out and lampoon people at NBL quite a few times in the past ... from right out of the blue too, without even having been involved in his victims conversations. The perfect little American sociopathic terrorist.

      However, believe it or not, even people this far gone CAN be turned around completely, but not usually until after they experience a deep personal crisis or calamitous psychological upset akin to a complete mental breakdown, one that snaps their ego ... almost like a natural form of electroshock therapy in a way. A person like this has to come to a point where they WANT to change. I don't think this tool is quite there yet, but he very well might be on his way.

      ...

      Oh, and ... loved being called a spoiled urban chick, by the way. This dudes even a misogynist too ... hasn't even been close enough to a woman in his life yet to realize they aren't fond of being called 'chicks.' Hilarious ... I actually always wanted to be a chick. Really, I did, lol.

      So funny, if it wasn't so tragic. Etyere Petyere ... forget about your hair ... you need to clean up your entire head, it's quite the disgusting, misinformed mess you know. Good luck with that. Until you do ... you're just part of the problem ... and you seem to be resigned to that at this point.

      Yikes, yikes, and double yikes. Danger: wetiko on display ... wetiko on display.

      :(

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    8. EP,


      Websters Dictionary Definition of Racism


      1: a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

      2: a doctrine or political program based on the assumption of racism and designed to execute its principles (a political or social system founded on racism)

      3: racial prejudice or discrimination

      I don't know if racism is about whether Germans are punctual or Chinese love maths. These can sometimes be stereotypes, and may or may not signal racism. And what does blacks having dark skin have to do with anything? Is dark skin a crime?


      Satish,

      One more thought on throwawy culture. What I'm proposing is to stop discarding the old thing as soon as the new thing comes along...which is the notion of linearly ascending progress. But I see it the same way with your discussion of (paraphrasing here) a better way of being in the past. We should not have destroyed those ways of being to start with. But now that we know how much we have lost thereby, while creating what we thought was superior--and I'm more sure about things than about customs and beliefs--we shouldn't discard those new things that have been created either. That would simply be continuing the habit of throwing away on the assumption that we know better what the future needs.

      What you seem to be underplaying more these days is your insight into spirit--spirit in every thing, every though, every moment. Those insights of yours were important for my understanding. And if I didn't thank you for referring us to the Clementine Prophesies, let me heartily thank you now. These sharings of yours have made a big, welcome difference to me.

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    9. As a clarification, this psychological that I refer to (and have referred to before) does not involve replacing any 'stories' in anyone's head with some new 'story.' That would be suspect ... who is the creator this new story then?

      No, the amazing thing when witnessing someone's consciousness getting raised is that the old 'story' is released from the subconscious, and what it gets replaced with simply arises out of the person ... almost like they've been returned to some sort of previous natural state. That state grows more and more compassionate, more aware, and more tuned-in to social cooperation for all life.

      Yogis and yoganinis discovered this aspect of the human mind (or possibly retained a more ancient understanding of it) and have devised and employed techniques for raising consciousness to achieve this end for a very long time now. It's an indirect process that can achieve amazing results. Ego eradication, and what's left behind is really quite remarkable.

      No wonder these concepts get ridiculed by the west. Wetiko resists inoculation as one of it's main traits. And no ... this has not much to do with 'hot yoga' that has become popular in the west recently. That stuff is 'yoga light' and only addresses the physical portion of a much larger branch of ancient study.

      Just thought I'd clarify that. It's hard to fathom until you experience your ego mind melting away. What gets uncovered in the process is something that was always there, but was just masked and hidden by a distorted and warped consciousness.

      Some people stumbled upon how to do the reverse ... lower the consciousness, and then fill the head with warped stories. That's what residential schools, organized child abuse, and even modern public education is all about ... lowering the consciousness and creating a blank, mindless robot by inflicting trauma. Then you fill that robot's head with stories and fear, give it a gun ... and viola, you have a modern person.

      This can be reversed though. No 'inserted stories' required. Just allowing a 'natural' human to step back in.



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    10. And really, that was just an example to refute this claim EP put forward that people's psychology can't be altered. Even western psychology recognizes that our psychology can be altered (though I don't think to the extent that other cultures have explored this.)

      And to my knowledge, based on my observations and experience, race is not a barrier to this phenomenon either. (lol)

      Social darwinism, by the way, was rejected thoroughly by Darwin ... and is only a theory that was heavily put forward by people in, go figure ... the USA, around the 1950's. Nowadays, nobody believes there is merit for any such theory ... except maybe the KKK. It's basically been disproven (social darwinism.)

      In addition, traditional shamanism also has techniques for raising the consciousness in humans. In particular, south american shamanism very much follows a similar line of thinking to that of eastern yogis ... albeit looking a little different, and getting there through different techniques. The end result is the release of trauma and the recovery of the mind, typically through the natural reduction of self absorption (the 'ego'), which is more or less a defense mechanism for a traumatized mind.

      Anyway ... maybe EP wants to look into some breathing exercises or something, since North Americans are notorious shallow breathers. It could possibly change his whole existence. That suggestion will probably cause a negative reaction in his wetiko though. :D

      Peace peeps.

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    11. I looked up Wetiko, and chose to scan this:

      http://realitysandwich.com/84778/lets_spread_word_wetiko/

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    12. And wetiko's trickiest aspect, as described in Jack Forbes book, is how it spreads. (I'll try and paraphrase how he put it.)

      Thinking in terms of populations:

      If you run from it, wetiko spreads because now you gave up your ground to it. It's allowed to take over the territory you left to it, and it has then gained ground and spread.

      If you stay and try to adapt to it, let it dominate over you, wetiko wins because now the aggressors simply dominate you, and then move onto the next victims. The wetiko has spread.

      If you resist the wetiko, which requires violence equal to that of the aggressor ... you now have wetiko too, so it has once again still spread ... to you. Fighting it blow for blow ... IS also wetiko.

      A pretty insidious mental disease for sure. Not sure if that was in the link you read, so I thought I'd throw it out there. It's an interesting concept.

      'Columbus and other Cannibals' (Jack Forbes) is worth the read if you are interested.

      I'm not any expert on it. I mostly just use the term to describe the general problem.

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    13. So on to the Tao of non Wetiko resistance. The article I posted is quite long, and seemed repetitive. I hope the scan I gave it will serve me for now. Thanks for the summary. BTW, I wrote a little addition to my previous writing segment. I go propose war against poachers, sounding a bit like Mussolini. There are righteous wars, perhaps, but I need to check up on myself too. :-)

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    14. Interestingly, from that write up (I'm reading it now) we see exactly something that was stated here earlier ...

      The statement:

      "It is just unfortunate for them that the euro guys got here before they could advance to the level where they could have defended themselves or the Europeans were lucky being a few hundred years ahead technologically otherwise it would have been the other way around ."

      From the write up:

      "Many of our society's historians, themselves infected by the wetiko virus, exalt aggressive and exploitative behavior, categorizing as ‘primitive'and ‘backwards' those who don't forcibly ‘conquer' others, thereby subtly and subliminally brainwashing the young into the ways of the world of wetiko. "

      Wetiko also perfectly describes why warnings about global warming fall on deaf ears ... people simply cannot see themselves for what they are and what they are doing to the environment. They just will not look at it ... and, like we see in republican extremists, they become violent the closer you get to forcing them to 'smell themselves.'

      You won't save the environment through informative education ... you have to cure the wetiko. It's the only way. It's not a matter of people 'seeing the logic, or the damage.' They have an aversion to looking at the damage they do, because that would expose the wetiko.

      It's like a bad horror movie plot.

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    15. "What you seem to be underplaying more these days is your insight into spirit--spirit in every thing, every though, every moment. Those insights of yours were important for my understanding. And if I didn't thank you for referring us to the Clementine Prophesies, let me heartily thank you now. These sharings of yours have made a big, welcome difference to me."

      Ah, I see... I think I understand where you were going... Yes, guilty as charged... I haven't been talking much about spirit... I have been talking about the current political economy, systems, money, technology, and the ills of civilization. I think I meander between this and that... depending on what's on my mind. I will try to get back to talking more about spirit., about beauty... I believe this is what Nemesis was pointing to as well.

      I have something to say about land in my next blog post. It might be overly analytical, I'm afraid... just hang in there :)

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  14. I'm re-posting your link here out in the main field Artleads. Yes, this is a pretty thorough overview of what watiko is all about. Well worth the read ... I hope Satish reads it.

    Ahem, if I can step out on a limb here ... I didn't find it repetitive. You may have just gotten triggered reading it, and then the wetiko closed the page for you. (That's a big part of how deep and hidden this problem is.)

    It's honestly worth more than just a scan. There's a lot in here (although I think I also cross reference other things into it as I'm reading it as well. Some might not make all of the connections this writing is linking together here. ie: do many know what it's like to truly think 'symbolically'? You have to be pretty 'insane' by today's worlds standards to even be able to accomplish that ... to adopt true symbolic thinking.)

    Satish ... it would be well worth the half hour of time it would take for you to read all of this. Easier than reading Jack Forbes book, and maybe even better in this summarized/connected style. Then you might better see where I'm coming from with some of the statements I make sometimes.

    http://realitysandwich.com/84778/lets_spread_word_wetiko/

    Peace peeps. ;)

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  15. Got this from a search for symbolic thinking. Fascinating!

    "At first we offered some cards noting different words like angry, or running, adjectives, and verbs, and asked some of the older children if they could express these ideas without using faces or words, or if could they express these ideas through color, line, or space."

    http://www.midpac.edu/elementary/art_pk/2012/01/symbolic-thinki.php

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    1. And having that progression lineup as white is a problem too. Whiteness came late, behind the ice sheet, to the north.

      http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=129082962

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  16. TOTALITARIAN

    This is how Webster's Dictionary defines it:

    Definition of totalitarian
    1
    a : of or relating to centralized control by an autocratic leader or hierarchy : authoritarian, dictatorial; especially : despotic
    b : of or relating to a political regime based on subordination of the individual to the state and strict control of all aspects of the life and productive capacity of the nation especially by coercive measures (as censorship and terrorism)

    2
    a : advocating or characteristic of totalitarianism
    b : completely regulated by the state especially as an aid to national mobilization in an emergency
    c : exercising autocratic powers


    I have been using the term "totalitarian" to mean something different, but I think related, to the dictionary definition of the term. I am using it to mean "autocracy" within a given sphere of influence. For instance: I see the Trump administration shaping up to be an autocracy. We are said to be living in an era of "inverted totalitarianism," which might mean that we are complicit in letting the "deep state" apparatus control us through our own self-censorship. But the Trump administration is promoting a regime run by overt force and violence and intimidation. What is the difference between the latter prospect and the former inverted totalitarianism? I don't know. But I advocate for one small aspect among the dictionary definitions, and it is this:

    c : exercising autocratic powers

    I don't personally wish to exercise autocratic rule in any conventional way, where I have physical control over people and get them to fear me. And I couldn't succeed at that even if I wanted to, although I will own to having autocratic tendencies in thought. The autocracy I envisage has more to do with an autocracy of the land, where it will insist on having its rivers flow to the see, and blockages to it water sheds significantly removed. It will also insist that its forests and wildlife not to be removed and made extinct. And the land, thereby, declares war against whatever forces get in the way of these aims. It is not for the land to accommodate the whims and fancies of people; it is up to the people to accommodate the requirements of the land. That, or suffer the consequences.

    I plan to say more on this later.

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    1. This manifesto-like totalitarian view would tend to eliminate abstractions, either of thought (hard to define) or of the physical landscape--like nation states and other civilization-imposed forms of dividing up the planet.

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    2. I don't personally wish to exercise autocratic rule in any conventional way, where I have physical control over people and get them to fear me. And I couldn't succeed at that if I wanted to, although I will own to having autocratic tendencies in thought. The autocracy I envisage has more to do with an autocracy of the land, where it will insist on having its rivers flow to the see, and blockages to it water sheds significantly removed. It will also insist that its forests and wildlife not to be removed and made extinct. And the land, thereby, declares war against whatever forces get in the way of these aims. It is not for the land to accommodate the whims and fancies of people; it is up to the people to accommodate the requirements of the land. That, or suffer the consequences. And since the land cannot use verbal language to make its wishes know, I offer an art movement that will speak in its name.

      The art project, while open to filling in many gaps in information to empower its basic premise, is not particularly open to debating the premise itself. Nature holds it to be self-evident that human activity has a continuing greenhouse effect on the earth, that species are dying at a rate unprecedented before modern civilization, that ice caps are melting as never since the dawn of humankind, that half the forests have vanished, that oceans have replaced thriving ecosystems with plastic goo and jellyfish. These truths are self evident.

      The art. project, then, involves considerable clean up and repair. It also involves an approach that makes newly created infrastructure harmonize with the old, with what is there already. This approach eschews demolition. It view the short sighted, greedy stupid construction on the land to be sacred. Not dams, however, if there are ways to restore close to natural river flows while keeping parts of dams...

      But the new art, beyond what I have found on the internet that can apply to it--architectural conservation, conservation in urban planning, natural taxonomy-as-art--still eludes in major part any systematic examples I can find. Ironically, the world is full of discreet examples which apply, but they are not pieced together to make an intentional patchwork quilt. They exclude the vast majority of the earth's surface. They do not as yet have totalitarian intent.

      Also, a major constraint and requirement for the new art is that, in large part, it is looking to perform beyond the boundaries of the money economy. And while the money economy still rules our lives, we need it, in the interim, to set up the field for when money might neither be as forthcoming nor as necessary as a medium of exchange. Salvaging, scavenging, reuse. preserving must therefore become the major supply-chain means for the new art. This is not simply a matter of affordability, but also part of the new art's symbolic message of turning away from the values of disposability. A fundamental aspect of the new art movement is in its sense of responsibility and ethics.

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  17. Great article on Wetiko, LWA and Artleads! Some of the parts that struck a chord with me -

    Speaking about how our species has never been able to get a handle on what is at the root of our self-destructive behavior, Forbes comments, "Unfortunately, most of these efforts have failed because they have never diagnosed the wetiko as an insane person whose disease is extremely contagious. Nor have they, generally, understood that the [seemingly] non-wetikos, whether flunkies, pimps, or the most oppressed, are often ‘secret carriers' of the disease."

    Forbes writes, "But this we must emphasize over and over, that the whole wetiko disease is not limited to the brutes and goons who handle the gun, the lash or the instruments of torture. The nice people in the offices, the typists, the lab technicians, the clerks and, of course, the owners, directors, stockholders, senators, generals and presidents who use, profit from, and feed
    on human exploitation are also cannibals to one degree or another."[xxii] The Big wetikos could never get away with the murder that they do without ‘the nice people in the offices' enabling them. These ‘typists, lab technicians and clerks' are just following orders,' and yet, are complicit in the insidious evil that is being spread throughout the world with their co-operation. Modern, corporate, technological systems are set up to distance us, both physically and psychologically, between what we do for a living and the ultimate, potentially destructive consequences of our actions. Even ‘the nice people in the offices,' people just like you and me, to the extent that we are not aware of how we are feeding, and being fed by, the wetiko virus, are tiny cogs in the great predatory machine, complicit in the impersonal evil of the faceless system and in the destruction it wreaks upon all life.

    The wetiko bug is something that we all have unconsciously acted out in our lives at one time or another. We've all had our wetiko ‘moments,' that's just the way it works. Recognizing this cultivates humility, which helps to psychically immunize us from the pernicious effects of the disease. This realization ultimately collapses the boundary between those who have the disease and those who don't. Wetiko's nonlocal nature ultimately makes the question of who has the disease irrelevant, as we all have it to varying degrees, or rather, it has us. We are all in the soup together. This realization engenders both compassion and forgiveness. This does not mean, however, that the Big Wetikos are not ethically, spiritually, and legally responsible for the unimaginable carnage they have caused.

    It is important to face how we have been deviated by wetiko, for if we cannot see how we have been set off course, we can't orient ourselves to find our true path in life. Seeing how we've been led astray is a form of illumination. To see how wetiko operates with our co-operation is to gain critical insight into the elusive workings of our own mind.

    Like that great maxim of medicine states, "Do not attempt to cure what you do not understand." The famous Greek philosopher Socrates reminds us that if we want to understand something, we first must name it. Naming something means to find our experience of its nature within ourselves. Indigenous, wisdom-based cultures understand the exorcistic power of finding the right name of a ‘demon,' which is precisely what they would understand the wetiko pathogen to be.

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    1. There are a whole bunch of things in that article that were interesting constructs and notions that would take a second read, a bit more slowly this time, to comprehend. But there's that definite notion of looking at Wetiko as a powerful spirit, one which survives and thrives by recruiting hapless souls into its fold and infecting them. A notion similar to how stories are more powerful than the people who carry them. And by naming this spirit as Wetiko, we call it out... we reduce its power, we expose it. That's laid out very well in that article by Levy commenting on Forbes' work.

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    2. I could get onto all sorts of angles talking about this concept of wetiko, since there are a lot of facets to it and ways in which it can be seen moving through our species. But I want to start with this point first, it gives it a bit of clarity and helps move it away from sounding woo or spirit like.

      Think of it in terms of how mental illness can be picked up environmentally. If your parents give you a terrifying environment to grow up in, then there is a good chance you will be dysfunctional, angry, hostile, addicted, etc, etc as well when you grow up. This, as was explained by Forbes a little clearer in his book if I recall correctly, is how wetiko spreads even to indigenous cultures.

      For example, if a native culture is brutalized and subdues ... then even though the initial adults can remember life before oppression, the children of those initial victims don't remember that life ... they grow up only knowing the brutality, and they will be brutal people as well (among other similar wetiko reactions.)

      To fabricate an example ... if people see an American native stealing to support a drug habit and joining a gang, or being an alcoholic street person ... then I say to those observers, well, what do you expect? Look at what was done to them? In fact that was the intent of residential schools ... to 'break' these people by brutalizing an entire generation of youth to achieve a specific 'break' in their mental stability culture wide.

      After that point, those abused children will have wetiko ... they will abuse their own kids, they will have mental illness, they will be angry. The children of oppressed people grow up IN wetiko, and so manifest wetiko ... it's environmental, just like mental illness can be passed on environmentally to children.

      The reason the Cree could identify it in the European settlers is becasue they had a perspective. In fact, to me, them being able to see it for what it was ... an anomaly and identify it as a behavior endemic to the European settlers ... proves to me they didn't have it when those settlers arrived.

      But oh boy, they have it now. Who wouldn't after being brutalized for generations. Whites started scalping natives for bounty ... so of course eventually natives started scalping them back. Who wouldn't? That's the environmental way wetiko spreads. No wonder the Kogi don't want contact ... period. That's a pretty intuitively wise move on their part. It spreads environmentally ... almost through sheer anger and bitterness alone.

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    3. And ... the naming thing ... it's just like how we cure addictions. You have to SEE you are a drunk, accept you are a drunk, acknowledge the behaviors and damage you do to others with your dysfunctional behavior ... before you can heal. Once you can find humility and say, "yes ... I am sick ... I AM an alcoholic ..." you cannot heal. SEEING IT is what begins the healing journey from addiction.

      It's amazing how addicts will deflect and refuse to acknowledge their deflections, their blown off commits, etc, etc ... when they are in the grips of the addiction. Once they can be truthful about these things and see that yes, they have a problem, then they start the healing journey. That actually IS the healing journey.

      That's how I see the naming of wetiko and SEEING it being so important. Does the CEO of Exxon see he has a problem? Nope. He honestly thinks he's just a real smart cookie. He really does. It's hard to look in a mirror and say, 'yup, I'm a screw up ... time to stop.'

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    4. Meant to type ...

      "Once you can find humility and say, "yes ... I am sick ... I AM an alcoholic ..." then you CAN heal."

      That's the 'seeing it.'

      Once you see wetiko ... man oh man ... then you see it everywhere, in everything we have created, in everyone.

      Then you're insane (unlike the group now) ... it's not an easy road to trek.

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    5. Oh, and Satish ... I see your urge to look at what went wrong as an intuitive prodding to identify the wetiko, to name it, to see it ... all it's aspects. Yes, so very important. That actually IS the healing, following along with the ideas in the wetiko article. See? Not so dumb. :)

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  18. Thanks Satish and LWA.

    I want to look for a few things on rereading:

    - Was wetiko there from the start in humans?

    - Do animals have wetiko?

    - Did wetiko increase dramatically at some point, so as to bring us to the edge?

    - Can wetiko exist outside the mind, as in ESP or in messages we get from wetiko-inspired artifacts?

    What happened to EP?????

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  19. - Was wetiko there from the start in humans?

    It should be noted that indigenous people are not free from the wetiko virus as well. There are
    indigenous cultures that are governed by wisdom, but there are also indigenous
    cultures that are ruled by wetiko. We should be careful to not romanticize and idealize indigenous, aboriginal
    cultures as opposed to European cultures, which would be too simplistic, and
    dualistic of a view.

    - Do animals have wetiko?

    Speaking of someone possessed by the wetiko virus, Forbes writes, "such a
    person cannot be authentic. Such a person is not merely a pimp, he is also a
    ghost, as it were, a mere imitation of a person. His life is an imitation of
    life…their life is less than that of a wild (free) animal who is, after all
    always authentic."

    - Did wetiko increase dramatically at some point, so as to bring us to the edge? (I would say, yes, and attribute that point to Greek civilization>)

    The in-spirit-ed organism of wetiko is a field phenomenon, and can
    only be seen when we snap out of the illusion of imagining we exist as a
    separate self and recognize and become conversant with the deeper, underlying
    and more fundamental nonlocal field in which we are all indissolubly
    inter-connected. "The field," as Einstein once succinctly put it, "is the only
    reality." In modern physics, the field?

    - Can wetiko exist outside the mind, as in ESP or in messages we get from wetiko-inspired artifacts?

    Their pathological inner state in-forms their actions in the outer
    world, which becomes the channel through which their ravaged inner landscape...

    An inner sickness of the soul, wetiko is unique in that it is a boundary-dissolving disease, collapsing the distinction between the inner and the outer, between dreaming and waking...to and configures events in the world so as to synchronistically express itself, which is to say that just like in a dream, events in the outer world
    are symbolically expressing an inner, psychological situation ... Wetiko can only be ‘seen' when we snap out of our literal way of interpreting our experience and start seeing with symbolically informed awareness. At the same time, wetiko itself can become the impetus for expanding our consciousness and recognizing that the world itself is a continually unfolding, living revelation of itself that is speaking symbolically, which is the language of dreams.

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    1. And like a drug addict ... they do live in a dream. Addicts literally WON'T SEE that they are blowing off commitments ... they rationalize that they got hung up getting there on time because of some other reason. They are in classic denial ... and live in a dream and don't see themselves as an addict at all. They know they are hooked on the drugs ... but they still make excuses for the damaging behavior ... it's always some other reason they did this or that. It's called 'being stuck in blame.' Just like the article spoke of.

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    2. I don't think Forbes was saying it's in indigenous cultures too, meaning it's always been there. It got into their culture because of how it spreads ... when people are brutalized. It's NOT something that's 'always been there in everyone.' That's not what he was saying there. Of course now that they have been dominated wetiko is in many indigenous people ... after all, some of them invest in stocks, work in offices, lie and act with duplicity. But that's because they were infected when they were brutalized and subdued ... so the children grew up in a wetiko environment and will then adopt wetiko behavior as well. But it wasn't 'always there.' Not until the Europeans spread it here ... don't lose sight of that. It's a sickness ... not a trait of the species (as NBL'ers used to argue ... many (most?) of them being quite infected and in denial themselves as well. The denial and excuses is part of the condition. No ... all humans have always been this way ... always ... bla, bla, bla ... Then why can some cure from it to varying degrees?

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    3. [sarcasm]No ... all humans have always been this way ... always ... bla, bla, bla ... [/sarcasm]

      Sorry, I used actual html tags in that last post and the software stripped them out ... oops. That was sarcasm. ;)

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    4. "I don't think Forbes was saying it's in indigenous cultures too, meaning it's always been there. It got into their culture because of how it spreads ... when people are brutalized. It's NOT something that's 'always been there in everyone."

      I read a while ago about two New Guinea tribes living on respective sides of a mountain range. The featured tribe kept their children very close--I don't think they ever left them anywhere but wrapped to the adult. They were extremely gentle people and the children were so close to the adults that they learned as toddlers to do the most dangerous tasks very safely. The other tribe was volatile, but I don't think the particulars of their child rearing were discussed. The anthropologist author also reported that the peaceful tribe lacked a certain "inoculation" to "wetiko" (the West) and could be quickly and radically destabilized by contact with it. Maybe the other tribe had already been infected with it. It would be good to know.

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  20. The first thing modern man has to do, is to free himself from materialism in any aspect. Socio-economic and scientific (physics) materialism are total brainwash. These wetikos spread materialism all over the place, just everywhere. And at the same time they spread superstition through Magick (Propaganda, Brainwash). Money is superstition, materialism is superstition, the rat race of competition is superstition, politics is superstition and the list goes on and on.

    The first step to realize ones own real nature, is to realize, that we are not the body, we are not the brain nor some funny part of the brain. When you really realize that, then you get some insight into your TRUE, ETERNAL NATURE. Some call it "God", others call it "Nirvana" or "True Self" or "Brahma" or "Satchitananda" or "Manitou" or what the heck. Names don't MATTER much. In fact, we are no observable objects in space and time, all shit, all FORMS in space and time are just reflections of the cosmic, conscious Subject wich transcends space and time and all matter and all observable objects, just like the eternal eye can not see itself, only reflections in space and time.

    There are ways, to set oneself free from the slavery of "matter", from the tyranny of Samsara, the tyranny of "eternal, FINAL end after death" or "eternal life after death" (as any FINAL state). In fact, any FINAL state would be what materialists define as "death". But there is no such thing, materialism preaches as "matter", nor is there any God outside of ourselves, outside the Universe. We are not some puppets on some stage, prepared by the wetikos, but we are the real Masters of life and death, as both are parts of ourselves, they don't come from "outside", life and death are the same True Nature of ourselves just reflected from two different angles. We have to let go of material IDENTIFICATIONS, we have to let go of any concept and conditioning and identification with socalled "matter" and shit. Then we become really free, spiritually free.

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    1. The same goes for McPherson et al. They show symptomps of wetiko materialism, scienticism. McPherson preaches materialism, a materialistic worldview, he reduces man to his brain- and body- form. That's a sign of brainwash. Christian priests preach some god outside of ourselves, while folks like McPherson preaches some "matter" out there, not much different from the priests, both is just superstitious, a big mistake.

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    2. Watch how Satish Kumar takes Richard Dawkins' materialsm apart:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19Sqt-zqmrk

      A holistic view. Materialists are not capable of seeing the Spirit in a rock, they are not even capable of seeing the Spirit in an animal or a huma being :-D

      Watch Jay Lakhani, how he makes total sense of science AND spirituality. He goes right into the depth of the conflict of modern scientific materialism and spirituality and makes perfect sense of both:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KrJvpD0nNM

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    3. I don''t want to deny matter (whatever that is). But ordinary people are blinded by concepts about matter and body/brain ect. If you want to answer the most important question:

      Who am I?

      Then you have to leave all names, forms, imaginations, concepts, reflections ect behind. That's a constant exercise, a process, not a final state. It transcends finished and unfinished. From an enlightened point of view, growth and decay are the same, there is no real coming and no real going, no birth, no death anymore, beyond all forms.

      We are not that face in the mirror of space and time. Remember:

      The eye cannot see itself, no chance, not in a trillion years. So live with it, die with it from moment to moment.

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    4. "Then you have to leave all names, forms, imaginations, concepts, reflections ect behind."

      So are you saying there isn't any value in identifying and naming the cultural attitude the Cree identified and called wetiko because everything is relative and in the end nothing really matters anyway?

      I think I agree with Satish that it's a matter of finding a balance right between the two extremes. One extremem being materialism and, oh my god, I better kill or be killed and make myself materially secure by plundering others ... and the other extreme being, meh whatever, nothing is real anyway so who cares if someone murders someones child to make a few bucks, I'll just turn my back on the world and go live in a cave.

      If growth and decay are truly the same, and everything is just ... equal ... then I guess the big wetikos would actually be the wise ones because they were willing to cause suffering and destruction for others in order to travel the world in private jets, to taste the finest foods, enjoy the finest things the world had to offer, and screw all the women.

      I personally think there is a moral imperative tied in to this experience we're having, even if it does prove to be transitory and based in an illusion. In my travels and experimenting, ignoring this plane and treating it as being unreal didn't lead anywhere satisfactory whatsoever.

      It seems something more is wanted from us by having this experience of separateness. Like learning to work within the limitations, but without becoming desperate and sociopathic like the big wetikos. Living in a cave like a monk and treating the world is if it didn't exist doesn't hold any value at all. Half crushing a kitten's skull and watching it stumble around in pain IS a wrong action ... unless nothing is real, in which case who cares about such an action. Life, death, pain, no pain ... if it's all the same, then why not go around crushing kittens skulls for entertainment?

      I don't understand what value there is in abandoning all forms, except in that it's then the extreme opposite then of materialism, like it's own prize or attachment all over again. I have found there is a correct balance to be struck. Otherwise ... wetiko, not wetiko, plunder, not plunder ... who cares? That leads to the obvious choice of plundering wouldn't you think?

      Help me understand. I get that you want to loosen the fixation on pure materialism ... but where are you going then with that? To just sit there like a lump not having any experience while you're here?

      I guess I'm not really trying to define reality here. I'm just getting on board with the Cree who felt they had identified a cultural belief in the Europeans that could bear with some improvement ... rather than being infected by it. I think they were on to something. Otherwise ... why not be the addict then? Hurt your friends and relatives. Who really cares, if it's all just ... not real and all just is. I think we're here to improve ourselves without falling into weak behavior such as wetiko behaviors. But that's just me.

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    5. Com on, I never said that. You should really know me better than that :-D

      I didn't say, everything is the same, everything is equal, everything doesn't matter and shit. When did I ever say that? :-D I never said that. I did not say, everyhing is unreal. When di I ever say that? I never said that.

      " I don't understand what value there is in abandoning all forms, except in that it's then the extreme opposite then of materialism, like it's own prize or attachment all over again. I have found there is a correct balance to be struck. Otherwise ... wetiko, not wetiko, plunder, not plunder ... who cares? That leads to the obvious choice of plundering wouldn't you think?"

      But I am no plunderer, no wetiko :-) The extreme opposite of materialism is idealism, the notion, that everything is just within our imagination. But I never said that either. You name it:

      There is a correct Balance to be struck. To gain real balance, we have to get rid of false identifications. To identify with the body is not balance. To identify with any concept is not balance. What I say is this:

      We need concepts to get orientation within time an space. But we are no concepts, are we? We are not our imagination, not any imagination, not any thought or any perception. Concepts, imaginations, thoughts, perceptions come and go, but we are not any of that shit. At least, I am not any of that shit.

      " Help me understand. I get that you want to loosen the fixation on pure materialism ... but where are you going then with that? To just sit there like a lump not having any experience while you're here?"

      Beyond all concepts does not mean, that there will be no more concepts or no more experience. In fact, the notion, that there will be no more experience IS a concept :-) All I say is this:

      Do not IDENTIFY with all these experiences. It's no bad habit to have experiences. But it's a big mistake, to say "I identify with this thought, I AM this thought, I AM this or that concept." Experiences come and go like pictures in a mirror, like clouds in the sky.

      Tell me:

      Are you your body? Who are you really?

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    6. I guess I misunderstood (and still do) this statement from you:

      "Then you have to leave all names, forms, imaginations, concepts, reflections ect behind. ... From an enlightened point of view, growth and decay are the same, there is no real coming and no real going, no birth, no death anymore, beyond all forms. "

      I think, in the context of the discussion of wetiko that was taking place, and with the idea put out there that identifying and labeling it was an important strategy for rooting it out (by becoming aware of it), instead of just remaining blind that anything out of the ordinary is happening around us ... I guess I just mistook your points as disputing any of that having any validity.

      You seemed to be saying ... forget names and labels and concepts ... which seemed to me like you were disputing the points that came up in the discussion of the wetiko concept.

      ...

      Wetiko is not a discussion about spirituality ... or about a physical material virus ... it's neither. It's simply the idea of a social construct, a description of a social behavioral pattern. It's about the spread of bad social behaviors ... similar to how if a bully hits kids with a stick, they will usually defend themselves with their own stick. Then, if a bunch of smaller kids watch this behavior day in and day out ... it's no surprise when all the little kids are now copying this behavior, thinking it's ok and normal to hit each other now with sticks, even when there isn't even a bully in the group. It's simply the spread of bad behavior and about normalizing it into being acceptable (or required even.)

      It's just an observation of social norms and behaviors and how they can be spread throughout populations, and wetiko is just the bad behavior brought to the world from Europe, behaviors that were difficult to resist, and that consequently spread throughout the rest of the world. It's also the study of how that behavior might be resisted and stopped and reversed.

      It's non-local only in the sense that behavior isn't a 'thing' ... it's an idea that spreads. Sort of like how Christmas celebration is a real phenomenon ... yet I can't trip over Christmas walking down the sidewalk. Social patterns of behavior aren't physical ... but they do exist and are expressed as actions, and they can be spread around and adopted and copied by others through exposure to them, often without even conscious intent.

      Sorry if I misunderstood your points Nemesis. I was just trying to fit them into the discussion about wetiko, and maybe that wasn't even what you were intending to talk about. Maybe you were starting a different conversation. Sorry if I was confused ... my mistake I'm sure.

      Wetiko is just looking into a psychological social phenomenon. Like smoking. Kids see parents smoke ... so they will often grow up to smoke too. Or like self defense ... if there are guys with guns robbing people, then soon everyone has guns too. If the bad kid in class shows the other kids how easy shoplifting is ... then soon all the kids are shoplifting too ... and too bad that your kid happened to wind up in that bad kids class, or they never would have been influenced to start shoplifting. It's about becoming aware of a social phenomenon, and aware about how and why it spreads among populations so easily (even sometimes on purpose.)

      Sorry if I got off track and missed your point Nemesis. It was 5 AM here when I read and started responding. Should have coffee'd up first I guess, lol.

      At this point I AM choosing to identify with the concept of wetiko, because it makes a lot of sense to explaining the psychology of our predicament, and I can see how awareness of a problem can work as a sort of inoculation against it, just like the wetiko article was discussing. So I'm just choosing to discuss it. Again, sorry if I missed the thrust of your comments.

      ;)

      Delete
    7. And yes ... getting ahead at all costs, even at others expense ... is a concept. And yes, most of our world IS this concept now. It's been embodied and has become the norm. In that sense ... people DO become 'concepts' ... expressions of what goes on in their minds, and then that shapes our world. I guess, sort of like stories.

      I'm not caught up in 'being' that concept. But I'd like to find a way to release others from being caught up in 'being' it, if I could.

      Delete
    8. Man, I did not critizise that concept about wetikos. In fact, it is some real good description about some real shit, no doubt here. So I didn't want to dispute any of it.

      Let me repeat my question now:

      Are you your material body? Are you the hair on your head? Are you these two legs or these two arms that came with that body? Are you the head, the stomack, the ass or everything combined? If so, then you'd lose some of your identity every time you lose a hair, every time you cut your fingernails. In fact, you'd be MORE when your hair growed and you'd be LESS when you cut your hair. That can not be true, can it? Imagine some organ transplantation:

      Someone got a sick kidney. Now, during some surgery his sick kidney gets pulled out off his body. Did he lose some identity now? Is he less now, did he lose any substantial identity? And now another kidney is transplanted into his body. Did his identity grow back to it's former state now?!

      Imagine someone cuts off one foot, two feet, one leg, two legs, one arm, two arms and so on. When exactly will he be gone? When you cut off the head or what?! I tell you:

      People are NOT their bodies, but ordinary people falsely identify with it.

      Real native people would never make such false claims, they do not identify with the body, therefore they know, that their real, cosmic being will not end when their body ends. So, to get rid of any purely materialistic wetiko infection, we need to get rid of false identifications and realize our True Nature wich is beyond any final concepts, but just expresses titself through concepts.

      Delete
    9. I don't know if that approach really works though Nemesis. We saw Robin Data on NBL who didn't give a damn about what was going on with climate change ... and actually wanted to stay comfortable until it all just went poof, because he thought he was an infinite being and was surely going to reincarnate on the next planet in line right after this anyway. He literally stated he didn't care if this planet burnt to a crisp.

      Even if he's right about going to another planet next, I hardly think that's the right attitude to take ... and that's where complete dissociation from identifying with his experience here at all took him to mentally. I found him to just be making a convenient excuse for ... surprise surprise ... doing nothing to alter his behavior. He expressed wanting the taps to keep flowing and the central heating to keep pumping out comfort right until the end. That's where his complete intellectual rejection of the material plane got him to. I didn't see how that was any different from the big wetikos ... who don't care either. See where his psychology took that concept to?

      Most Christians are actually forsaking the sacredness of the earth too, because they reject it and see it as a transitory stop on the way to somewhere better ... or at least somewhere different, similar to Robin Data, same end result in actions. Mormons are the worst for this ... they hate earthly life, see themselves as spiritual beings who are going to be gods of their own individual planets in the next life, and so are the worst for having no respect, and even outright environmental disdain, for their current experience here.

      Somehow this is where those beliefs are taking people ... so we need something different from this. This concept, this mental outlook of 'stop clinging to materialism, you are an eternal spirit', doesn't seem to be providing the outcome we would hope it would ... even if it is true (I'm not going to open up that discussion, I'll just present what happens when modern people do embrace this idea.) It seems to just be creating it's own monster, the same monster, once the idea fully plays out in the wetiko filled mind. Caring too much for survival somehow turns into not caring at all whatsoever for life ... with the same end result.

      We need a better solution than that, because that one just doesn't seem to be working for wetiko minds. It just gets turned into more laziness and denial.

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    10. So, if you like to cling to wetiko materialism, just do it, it's your choise :-)

      Delete
    11. That's a really pompous statement you know ... especially for someone who rails with observable hatred against people who have wealth, maybe even just wealth that you don't happen possess yourself. I think that was a phony, passive aggressive comment to make, verging on hypocrisy. Very weak response Nemesis, and very arrogant too.

      Delete
    12. I think you, Nem, are the extreme OTHER polarity that Satish reflects ... from clinging, to complete dissociation. It's just the other intellectual extreme.

      Delete
    13. Everyone of you here praises native thinking. But the notion that our innermost being dies when the body dies is NOT native thinking 100% for sure, muhahaha :-)

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    14. In fact, it's just materialistic wetiko thinking, one of the main deseases of modern times. Don't worry, this desease will be cured soon ;-)

      Delete
    15. Let me repeat that, because it's just fuckin TRUE:

      Everyone of you here praises native thinking. But the notion that our innermost being dies when the body dies is NOT native thinking 100% for sure, muhahaha :-)

      Delete
    16. And neither is the complete rejection of this world in favor of another they are headed to shortly part of any indigenous thinking. They embraced this life while they were here ... they didn't reject or turn their backs on it.

      Can you spot the difference there from what you threaten, er, I mean preach?

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    17. Com on, little white ass, just gimme ONE quote of a real native man who said, that when the body dies then the Spirit will die with it ! You will not find any such quote :-D

      Delete
    18. I never rejected life and shit !!! Stop putting shit into my mouth I never said :-)

      Please:

      Com on, little white ass, just gimme ONE quote of a real native man who said, that when the body dies then the Spirit will die with it ! You will not find any such quote :-D

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    19. And dude, I already fully died in this life ... left my physical body, and came back again (after being given that choice.) So don't imply onto me your projections of what you think my beliefs are. Careful that your ego isn't getting riled maybe. :)

      Delete
    20. And when did this quote your looking for ever come up from me in our conversation? You're the one attributing things that I am not saying. Come on man, get off it already.

      Delete
    21. Yes, yew, yes, it's all just my fault :-)

      So, now gimme that quote of any real native man claiming that he as The Spirit will die when the body dies !!!

      In the meantime:

      Shall I give you quotes of real native men saying exactly the opposite ?! :-)

      Delete
    22. All I said was that combined with their spiritual outlook, they also embraced this life while they were here strongly. Their reverence for their life here was large, as is demonstrated by their deep regard for all things in this world. Something modern spiritualists are having a tough time wrapping their heads around. I never once attributed this quote your looking for to indigenous thinking, not once in our conversation did I say that. You have construed that, I think, just because I pointed out their embrace of THIS experience while they were here. One doesn't preclude the other, they are not mutually exclusive ideas you know.

      Delete
    23. You're on a tangent man ... I never said what your implying. That's just how you've taken my pointing out their equal embrace of this life. Forget your silly quote you're looking for. You're being inane.

      Delete
    24. Yes, yes, yes, I am insane and I give a shit. Anyway, here comes the first quote of a real native man:

      "You have noticed that everything as Indian does is in a circle, and that is because the Power of the World always works in circles, and everything tries to be round..... The Sky is round, and I have heard that the earth is round like a ball, and so are all the stars. The wind, in its greatest power, whirls. Birds make their nest in circles, for theirs is the same religion as ours....
      Even the seasons form a great circle in their changing, and always come back again to where they were. The life of a man is a circle FROM CHILDHOOD TO CHILDHOOD, and so it is in everything where power moves."

      Crowfoot, Blackfoot warrior and orator

      Now, precious little white ass, what now? Do you agree with that fuckin native quote or not? 8-)

      Delete
    25. To you, it appears any embrace of this life as having value seems to indicate to you a rejection of the spiritual. I see now how applied in the reverse, to have a spiritual outlook seems to mean you can't also embrace this life too. That's just binary thinking though. Why can't BOTH ideas be embraced ... instead of heading into the Robin Data outlook of turning one's back on where you happen to be at the moment?

      Delete
    26. You are stuck on something you made up in your head, that you think I said, that I never did ... and you are freaking out dude. Whatever. Sorry to upset your delicate ego.

      Delete
    27. And I never saw in that quote anyone saying ... "so you are free to disregard this place entirely." But that seems to be your interpretation of these things. Have fun in heaven.

      Delete
    28. Dude, Why should I reject life? I AM LIFE, so how could I reject my own most inner being?! If I'd reject life, I'd had to kill myself. And even then I can not escape life within myself :-)

      See, native people think and feel from childhood to childhood, they think and feel in CIRCLES. Circles got NO beginning and NO end, muhahaha. Circles got no final birth and no final death, muhahaha. So, Crowfoot said EXACTLY what I said some comments ago, hahahaha :-D

      Delete
    29. And actually, the Blackfoot reservation is just a few miles South of where I live ... with the Stoney just a few miles to the west. I've sweat with them in their lodge. Have you? They definitely don't discard this life in favor of ones to come. Never.

      Delete
    30. I am a Musician, so I don't have any intention to discard life.

      So, dearest little white ass then tell me, WHEN did I discard life ?! WHERE did I discard life? Show me the words I used to discard life !!

      Delete
    31. And I still see in your words that you interpret eternal existence to mean it doesn't matter what happens here. The Blackfoot DO NOT think like that. Their not hoping for a blue ocean event just to see the white man get his just rewards. That's a christian meme, the idea of revenge. They are very much concerned with what's going on with the earth ... right now. You seem to have the Robin Data approach that it doesn't matter because in the end ... you're covered either way. Natives don't think like that. They care about the here and now just as much as the then and there. Do you get yet how eternal life memes can also be damaging to people if it causes them to turn their back on this world as if it doesn't matter? So yes, some of us try and sort things like wetiko out, with compassion for the people with the sickness. We don't stick our middle finger up and laugh at them.

      Delete
    32. " Have fun in heaven."

      Again you put shit into my mouth I never said. Actually I give a SHIT about funny "heaven" and fuckin funny "hell", as I am beyond these funny constructions and concepts OF YOURS :-)

      Delete
    33. " And I still see in your words that you interpret eternal existence to mean it doesn't matter what happens here. The Blackfoot DO NOT think like that. Their not hoping for a blue ocean event just to see the white man get his just rewards."

      You may see in my words whatever you wish to see. Do you hope for a blue ocean event? I do not hope for any blue ocean event and I never said that I'd do, did I ?!

      I have reduced my consumption to almost nothing, that's my responsibility, my task, my job. This way I let lose of shit, this wy I gained freedom, this way I took my responsibility serious. So why do you insult me of discarding life ?!

      Delete
    34. Mormons stick their middle finger up at people and laugh at them ... because, ya know, they're special, and have special insights, and are going to get their very own planet when their done here. And then they go drive their 4X4's through the bush without a care in the world for this place. That's what incomplete eternal life memes do for some people. Not a good outcome at all. No, we need a better approach than that. That's why the Cree tried to figure out a cure for the wetiko, be that clinging to a material world concept or not. They cared enough to try and solve this. I don't want this place to burn up either ... and I HAVE been out of my body. No way, this place is very, very cool ... worth holding onto. I'm glad I was coached to come back. Actually, I regretted leaving the moment I wasn't here anymore. Glad I got to come back and finish out this life. Funny what some perspective brings.

      No. White people don't do well with the eternal life meme. They usually take it to mean the exact wrong thing.

      Delete
    35. And where did you come up with the bizarre notion that I claimed natives don't believe in a spiritual existence? Where did that come from? Just because I was pointing out value in also appreciating this existence.

      And I don't think your 'beyond' anything Nemesis. That's being pretty self important you know. Delusion of grandeur possibly? Fuck man, you're so pompous about all of this ... like you're the only one who knows what's what. I'm calling your bluff. I'm going to get back to the wetiko discussion. That had value, that had something actionable to it. This is nonsense.

      We tried the eternal life meme on people in the modern world. They just misconstrue it. We need a different approach than that. Back to what I said at the beginning. That's why we're discussing the indigenous concept of wetiko.

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    36. " White people don't do well with the eternal life meme. They usually take it to mean the exact wrong thing."

      I give a shit about "white", "red", "yellow", "black". And I give a shit about funny "eternal life" concepts OF YOURS, actually I never said anything about funny "eternal life" as any FINAL, UNCHANGING state to wich one should CLING to. To say "I will FINALLY die" is a concept, a WRONG concept and to say "I will FINALLY live forever" is a wrong concept as well.

      Anyway, I do not identify with the body, I do not identify with birth and death, I do not identify with any funny concept, I just see us running in circles from childhood to childhood, just like Vedanta does, just like Crowfoot does, muhahaha :-)

      Delete
    37. See, I get the impression that I just wasted too much words once again. So, it might be a much better choice for me to go silent again. I love silence, just as my teacher is some perfect example of silence, isn't he? :-)

      Yes, in silence there is unspeakable Unity and therefore freedom and peace.

      Delete
    38. And this all started because you cast the concept of wetiko aside and claimed ... no, what people need is to learn about eternal spiritual life. But that's not working, and that's what I pointed out. Look at Mr. Data. That just made him disregard his current life completely. That's what I was pointing out to you.

      I'm sticking with wetiko and the idea of shamanic healing ... not just giving people more of what they already have misconstrued and taken in the wrong way. That was my point to you.

      Then you went on about asking where native people disregarded a spiritual existence. And I don't even know where that came from. You went down that path, not me.

      I'm going to explore the indigenous concept of wetiko, and their ideas for healing from it. Convincing people of a spiritual existence seems to do nothing to change anything when they are influenced by wetiko. I'm looking for another way. Why not? There's nothing to lose by trying. Eternal life memes fail on modern people, true or not, doesn't even matter. They fail. Next idea please ....

      Delete
    39. No more ideas. You are right and I just take the rest of it once again:

      Silence :-)

      Delete
    40. Nemesis, I think our language barrier presents a total failure to communicate. You're the one who lashed out at me saying fine, cling to your materialist beliefs then ... bawahahaha. Nice attitude about the native insight into wetiko there. You're the one who brought up not being finished upon death ... and now you are trying to say I brought it up.

      Man, I don't fall for your heavy tactics. You been sniffing glue or something? You can't even remember five minutes ago it seems. Get a grip. You just like to fight with people I think. But I remember the pokes you put out. You don't talk ... you just tell. There's a big difference. Get a grip Mr. Enlightened. I'm not buying it.

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    41. And dude, it's great that you found enlightenment for yourself ... but you can't TELL people about enlightenment if they aren't searching for it already on their own. So how do you reach them? Certainly not by chastising them about it like some Cqatholic priest. Haven't you figured that out yet? That's all you ever push is this one idea, something that just happened to work for YOU.

      The indigenous Cree who identified wetiko were also enlightened, but the people who the Cree saw invading their country and killing their people ... they weren't getting it. Not at all.

      So they came up with the wetiko angle. The thing you just called clinging to a materialistic concept. I'm going with their observations thanks, not your insistence on this one idea you have that you push over and over.

      You don't have to go silent. But when you discard a valid approach like the Cree came up with and place yourself on a pedestal like you do, and go all off with your buwahahaha like you are so fond of doing ... mocking people ... don't be surprised when you get some push back once in awhile.

      Thanks for the fine argument. It certainly was circles and circles and circles.

      :D

      Don't be mad. Be happy. School me about playing in bands some more maybe ... something you've never actually done, but apparently ALSO know everything about. ;)

      Now there's a buwahahahaha for ya. Come down off that pedestal man and just be real.

      Delete
  21. I just caught up with all the comments and I have to say LWA made some very relevant and thoughtful comments.

    I feel he really understands the spirit of this blog... as much as anyone else I have come across who reads me... and this Wetiko discussion is one I think is well worth having... it's important to figure this stuff out and that's what was going on in the comment thread... LWA mentioned Wetiko and Artleads pulled up the article by Paul Levy and we all read it and were discussing it... and here comes Nemesis talking about other things, calling out things we were talking about and disputing them... that's like walking into a card club and clapping hands and announcing to everyone, "hey, who wants to play bingo?" :)

    At least, say something related to the conversation, Nem! You have something you want to talk about? It's very apparent to me you do. I said it before... you seem to have something you want to say... get your own blog and say it... I promise I will read every one of your blog posts. Sorry we are not talking about the stuff you want to talk about. Maybe you need to make it more interesting. And relevant. It can get a bit too philosophical and ethereal very quickly. We like to stay grounded. At least a few of us here.

    Or you can hang out here and participate in the conversation... but you don't want to walk in and say things that are totally unrelated... I know it's frustrating when you have something on your mind and no one is talking about it... trust me I know how frustrating and lonely that makes one feel. But you haven't captured our attention with what you said... and if you listen and pay attention, you'd realize it. We continue discussing Wetiko and you start talking about materialism and identification with the body... I get that... some people have figured out how to transcend the body and attain escape velocities that Elon Musk would be proud of :)

    But, man, that's not what we are concerned with now... we're here on planet Earth and there's a disease raging. The machine is running rampant snuffing out life and beauty in all its forms. So much needless suffering and pain being caused. So many extremes and perversions. We're not done figuring this out... no, really, we're not...

    Think about it... by derailing a discussion about Wetiko, perhaps you're helping it unwittingly... maybe this is how it has spread so easily. Because people don't want to talk about it, don't want to acknowledge its presence, its power and its control over them. Over all of us...

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    Replies
    1. I half get the sense that Nem is concerned with a kind of "nothingness." And that beyond a certain point, trying to pin things down makes you lose the thing. More than half a century ago, I would always be reading books on Chinese philosophy, or Zen, and how slippery it was to talk about them. Now, I could be completely wrong about where he's coming from. Like most of us, he might not be entirely clear himself.

      I know what it feels like to be resigned. to be lost, hopeless, failed, outcast, on the losing end of everything. That could explain me more than Nem.

      But I receive guidance from kuku in all this. LWA talked about the 10 commandments, distilling them down to maybe four or even less. The point was to believe in your own inspiration. That helped me a lot.

      I didn't gravitate too much to the Wetiko conversation at first--since it seemed like I would need to understand Forbes's view, or be nowhere. Mark Passio would have us follow his natural law exactly, or else be nowhere. So many things are like that. Do this. Read this. Or you can't get anywhere.

      In spite of that, the recommendation (gently presented) to read Celestine Prophesy was hugely instructive. So some readings help and some might or might not confuse and alienate. The Wetiko conversation is useful to me too, but maybe I don't quite get it either. It makes me think that Wetiko is a Devil meme that has taken over every corner of the planet. It is totalitarian. It has grabbed hold of the land, which is our very life. How many people are obsessed with that? I don't know if it's the Kogi who say that America (the West) has to find another dream. The dream we have is Wetiko. So, for the moment, it could be that my musings about land (which seem not to be catching fire anywhere) is to replace the Wetiko hold on the land with something equally totalitarian... It's a totalitarian view of hegemony, rights and volition of the land itself. Humans can only survive if thoroughly subordinated to the land. But it's immaterial whether they survive or not. The land is everything. Maybe, like Nem, I'm outside the conversation on kuku.

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    2. Just a short note to Artleads here that wetiko is not a supernatural concept. It's not about some devil spirit that's taken over people or the land. It's addressing a psychological sickness.

      It's no secret to psychologists that children who've been beaten or sexually abused by their parents will often grow up to beat or sexually abuse their own children in the same manner, and then their children will also do the same to theirs. This can continue for generations until someone in the lineage steps up, acknowledges they have a problem, and does the work required to "break the cycle." This is a widely accepted understood concept in family psychology and psychiatry, and gets addressed on the parent-child level daily by healers all over the world.

      This is the same thing wetiko is addressing, except on a much wider cultural level.

      Wetiko doesn't infect land, it's not some mystical spirit, it's a psychosis within people's minds ... it's about repeating a cycle of abuse on others that was done to you. There is no wetiko hold on the land. It's a psychological construct, it's about repeating a cycle of abused. It's about psychology, not metaphysics.

      An example is the way scalping was first conducted in Southern California by the European settlers ... the scalp was how they proved a kill to collect the bounty they were paid for extermination the SoCal natives. It's no surprise then that one day natives snuck into a settlement camp and scalp some Europeans in return, even though they'd never exhibited this behavior before. (Then Hollywood rewrote history and attributed ALL scalping activity to ONLY natives.) That was someone repeating abuse they had received at the hands of another.

      Another example is residential schools set up by the Catholic church in Canada to house native children they forcibly removed from their parents. In these institutions the children were purposely raped, beaten, starved, etc, etc. This was done KNOWING that it introduces these behaviors into the children who will then grow up to rape and beat their own children as a repeated cycle of abuse generation after generation. This was started in order to be able to continue the genocide long after it had become unpopular to just walk up and shoot them dead. This is another example of how abuse quite often will cause it's victim to then perpetuate that abuse on someone else in turn.

      Bullies bully because someone bullied them ... always.

      Now expand this concept to other areas ... daycare, public school, war, invasion, subjugation, slavery, occupation, colonialism ... this is the spread of the wetiko illness, because the victims will then take up the brutal behavior against others themselves in succession.

      Back on the family level, it's a psychological phenomenon that is very well known and understood ... we've just never extended it to look at it's effects in terms of a culture wide phenomenon, or labeled things like capitalism as possible manifestations of this same phenomenon.

      Hope this adds some clarity. This is not a supernatural concept whatsoever. It's about digging into human psychology. Wetiko can't infect land. Wetiko isn't a 'spirit.' It's a human mental illness, a psychological condition that spreads though influence by it and from exposure to it. It also gets successfully treated on the family level daily all around the world. It just requires the humility to accept you have it, and then to address it with any of various therapies.

      Addressing it culturally would be taking it to a whole new level though. That would require national levels of humility on a wide scale. Yes, capitalism is a sickness, a disease ... literally.

      Hope this helps.

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    3. I'll add that incest used to be swept under the carpet and people used to refuse to accept that anyone did this to their children. When that veil of silence was lifted in some societies and people stopped being in denial about it, the issue was slowly able to be addressed. Now many victims of childhood sexual trauma are able to step up and heal, and thus stop the cycle and avoid passing this legacy onto their own children.

      I give these examples out as analogies because we all are probably familiar with them. Wetiko follows the same patterns, repeats the same way, and can be addressed in similar fashions. It would require, though, people to stop ignoring there is a problem like how they ignored and denied incest existed up until a short time ago in history. Wetiko just extends this phenomenon on a much wider group of behaviors. Particularly, onto the behavior of exploitation, such as with capitalism. But there is a whole host of behaviors wetiko will encompass.

      Wetiko translates into 'cannibal.' Someone who consumes other life for their own gain. That's even what incest is if you connect the dots. Being willing to harm your own offspring simply for your own gratification. Cannibalism. Wetiko.

      We have developed a cure. There just needs to be the humility and the courage to heal.

      I hope this grounds the concept at least a little. There are other subtler aspects to the phenomenon as well, but maybe these analogies help frame the concept into something people are at least a little bit familiar with already. Conquering other people and things is not human nature ... it's a sickness that crept into our psychology. Look at how brutal the Romans were as they marched through Europe. I have no idea though where the Romans might have picked it up from. It's a diseased outlook on life. No, the natives didn't have this outlook on life until after they were conquered by the Europeans.

      This is about trying to see if we can 'break the psychological cycle.'

      And yes, America has it bad. But so does a lot of the world now too. It's everywhere now. That's why ||Forbes used the metaphor of a virus. But it isn't an actually virus. It's a psychological condition that spreads through exposure to exploiters who dominate and exploit others for personal gain. (Which reads like a guide for good old solid American business practices, lol.)

      People who have wetiko will even teach these behaviors to their children in school, and write proud history books exalting these behaviors. But they are in fact a sickness. One that hates being called out into the light of day too.

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    4. @venerable Satish Musunuru:

      "At least, say something related to the conversation, Nem!"

      Hahaha, man, you and like-minded people here said already what there is to say repeatedly for years now^^:

      We are lost, wetiko all over the place, finished, done, extinction :-)

      You want me to repeat your wisdom? Ah, no problem:

      We are lost, wetiko all over the place, finished, done, extinction :-)

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    5. I find you repeat yourself too Nem. Lots.

      Even after hundreds of conversations agreeing with you about a spiritual existence, you still talk down to me trying to convince me of something I've long ago agreed with you about. What's the point in having your conversation over and over again with people who already agree with you? Do you just skip over what people write to you in your hurry to chastise and lecture them?

      And I didn't call you 'insane', by the way, I said you were being 'inane.' Look it up.

      This was so ridiculous from the other day ... you said:

      Everyone of you here praises native thinking. But the notion that our innermost being dies when the body dies is NOT native thinking 100% for sure, muhahaha :-)
      NemesisDecember 23, 2016 at 11:34 AM


      First off, YOU were the one who brought up this notion ... nobody here did. I certainly didn't. You were being dishonest. And that sounds like someone preaching eternal existence, which you later claimed was a concept that was beneath you. Then why were YOU pushing the idea? Do you even read what YOU write in your comments? Ridiculous behavior from you Nem, I expected better from you. That was silly.

      And furthermore ... you say:

      "In fact, it's just materialistic wetiko thinking, one of the main deseases of modern times. Don't worry, this desease will be cured soon"

      It sounds to me like YOU are the one speaking about extinction here. Sounds like YOU are the one professing "finished, done, extinction."

      More dishonestly from you combined with a failure to even observe your own thoughts clearly.

      ...

      All I was trying to get across to you the other day was that people becoming aware of their spiritual existence doesn't do a thing to alter their behavior, and it often just gives them even MORE of an excuse to disregard their current experience (natives NEVER disregarded their current experience, even with having spiritual beliefs.)

      Too often this knowledge even makes their behavior worse. That was the point I was making, and you couldn't hear it. Are you in denial over something about yourself maybe? You couldn't seem to hear that, and insisted went on this tangent of yours thinking I was disputing a spiritual existence. Then you got all rude and obnoxious to me over your mistaken presumption about what I was saying.

      I don't see you as enlightened whatsoever, Nemesis. Too prideful about yourself to be enlightened for sure. You also have very poor reading comprehension when your ego gets all riled. Are you sure you aren't just a megalomaniac?

      I find you to be shifty and quite dishonest when you debate. Some enlightenment you got there my friend.

      :D :D :D

      I think you might have the wetiko dude. Check your temperature maybe.

      Delete
    6. Oh, and wetiko doesn't mean 'materialism.' Do you just invent your own definition for words? Wetiko means something specific. It's not a discussion about materialism. More dishonesty from you, just interpreting things as they suit YOU.

      Ridiculous.

      Delete
    7. When someone challenges your thinking ... you just get angry Nemesis, and start hurling abuse at people. That's classic egotism you know. It's actually a wetiko reaction, and not enlightenment.

      I think you're just full of yourself. Silence would certainly suit you, if I thought you could actually keep your word. :D

      What a goof you are to people.

      Delete
    8. http://tinyurl.com/zj3gxde

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVeCTkQ6Jtw

      Delete
    9. http://tinyurl.com/zj3gxde

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVeCTkQ6Jtw

      Delete
    10. Thank you very much for revealing your heart and soul, so we could clear things^^ I love people, who reveal what they really think and feel :-)

      Delete
    11. e·go·tism
      ˈēɡəˌtizəm/
      noun
      noun: egotism

      the practice of talking and thinking about oneself excessively because of an undue sense of self-importance.


      :D :D :D

      Because YOU said something before that Blackfoot also said ...
      Because YOU have the only enlightened perspective ...
      Because YOU don't identify with anything ...

      You you you you you.

      Congratulations ... YOU have a huge ego which you confuse with enlightenment.

      Praise the lord.

      I noticed you avoided addressing the points I made after your attempt to insult Satish. Nice diversion. No, you are dishonest Nemesis. A phony. Goodbye now. ;)

      Delete
    12. Yes, yes, yes, you are ok, I am not ok :-)

      Delete
    13. (But I actually saw that quite awhile ago when you were dishonest with me previously too. Wetiko!)

      Delete
    14. You still can't address those points can you? Just more diversion and avoidance. Sad.

      Delete
    15. " You still can't address those points can you? Just more diversion and avoidance. Sad."

      Man, you adressed all the points already. I am wetiko, a phony, ridicioulous, dishonest, some egotist ect, while you are cool :-) Do you want me to repeat that? :-)

      Delete
    16. I never made a claim that I am cool, but that's what YOU do constantly, like some need for attention, like a hole you can't fill in yourself.

      I meant the points I just made about our discussion the other day. And you just throw out more shifty diversions to avoid addressing them. You did that in our conversation the other day too. I think you have huge blinders on dude about where you're really at. Fine, don't address the points then. I didn't expect you would anyway, it would require self reflection rather than self admiration.

      Muwahahaha. ( :D )

      Delete
    17. No, excuse me, you did not say that you are cool. But I said that :-)

      Delete
    18. Still can't address those points, hey?

      Never mind anyway ... friends just called, leaving for the day.

      Delete
    19. Man, I am just not that cool and friendly and calm as you are. What do you expect from a (quote:) phony like me? :-)

      Delete
    20. ... continues to avoid points and just offers more diversions ...

      yawn.

      Delete
    21. You know, I just let go, I just let lose, I don't cling to some letters on some screen, no way. I read em, yes, but I just don't cling to em, no way^^ I just feel some great Freedom and Peace and Joy within, regardless of any funny letters on any funny screen. What's left to be bored of or to be angry of for some species that is (according to Satish and others) doomed anyway? Nothing at all. That's just what my teacher says :-)

      Delete
    22. Do you feel great Freedom and Peace and Joy inside too? I wish you do :-) And if you feel Freedom and Peace and Joy within just like I do, then what's the problem? None :-)

      Delete
    23. The worst thing that could happen to me is to lose Balance and to get angry because of what other people say about me, because then my own freedom and peace and joy would be dependent on others, it would be dependent on WORDS, LETTERS, THOUGHTS of OTHERS :-D Some say, I am cool, while others say, I am a phony- SO WHAT? :-D I just don't get upset about what other people say about me, I just keep my Balance and Freedom and Joy within.

      Much Love to you, LWA :-)

      Delete
    24. pa·tron·ize
      ˈpātrəˌnīz,ˈpatrəˌnīz/
      verb
      1.
      treat with an apparent kindness that betrays a feeling of superiority.

      Delete
    25. Superiority over what or whom? To feel superiour over something or someone, I'd need some comparision, but I don't have any comparison, as I am Unique, in- diviual (in- divisible), just like you are :-)

      Delete
    26. Many men tried to climb that Mountain, they got lost in a minute, inside... Isn't it so? :-)

      Delete
    27. Nemesis, you certainly are a poster child for demonstrating the failure of zen philosophy as any sort of path to better mental health. It seems to have actually just made an egotistical narcissist out of you instead. What a joke. I really am tired of hearing your self congratulatory nonsense and the evasive circular arguing stemming from your denial. Thanks for derailing yet another conversation with your needy dysfunctional behavior.

      "Narcissistic personality disorder is a mental disorder in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for admiration and a lack of empathy for others. But behind this mask of ultraconfidence lies a fragile self-esteem that's vulnerable to the slightest criticism."

      I agree with Satish. You should go get your own blog to soapbox from.

      Delete
    28. Ah, thanks again for opening your heart and soul. As I said, I truely love clarity, I love people who do not hesitate to show the real content of their heart and soul :-) And again:

      Much Love to you, dear LWA :-)

      Delete
    29. “Letting go gives us freedom, and freedom is the only condition for happiness. If, in our heart, we still cling to anything - anger, anxiety, or possessions - we cannot be free.”

      ― Thich Nhat Hanh

      :-)

      Delete
    30. As I got real clarity now thanks to your frank and well-meant comments, I promise I will not give you (and Satish) any more reasons for any more outrage. I can let go of Kuku now once and for all. So, if you like, please go on with all your wise comments pointing to me, LWA. But please know, I won't read anything at Kuku anymore, just because I clearly don't fit to this blog, as you made clear in such a frank way repeatedly. Nevertheless, thank you very much for all your frank, absolutely clarifying and enlightening comments so far!

      I wish you here at Kuku all the very best truely from my heart, I don't feel any anger ect, just great Peace. I always truely loved farewells.

      I am diving back into Freedom and Peace and Joy now :-)

      That's it. Lebt wohl.

      Delete
    31. Oh spare us your melodramatic attempt at emotional manipulation. I think YOU made it clear you don't fit in on this blog when you barged in and started correcting everybody and hurling insults at everyone like an arse.

      So, I'm not falling for your childish attempt to divert blame onto others. It's clear that YOU caused this outcome for yourself through your OWN obnoxious behavior.

      What a disruptive drama queen you are.

      Lebt wohl.

      Delete
  22. “Letting go gives us freedom, and freedom is the only condition for happiness. If, in our heart, we still cling to anything - anger, anxiety, or possessions - we cannot be free.”

    ― Thich Nhat Hanh

    :-)

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. LWA,

      "Addressing it culturally would be taking it to a whole new level though. That would require national levels of humility on a wide scale. Yes, capitalism is a sickness, a disease ... literally."

      This is how I think about it too.

      Given how similar I see people as being, I imagine other people to be a lot like me. So I question whether it is just a lack of humility that's the problem. I imagine that self shame and self hatred are big elements of the problem too. We are on defensive too much.Fear. Lack of love for self...and of course for others. But lack of humility has also been part of the equation for me, just the same.

      Delete
    2. I think it has a lot to do with humility being the road to healing from this affliction. That's why I gave the example of the drug addict. Even though they will acknowledge they do the drug, they will often avoid at all costs admitting the drug is causing a problem in their life. "Gee, they were just at a football party." No, they are drunk and blowing off their commitments every weekend. But in any one instance, they always have an excuse. "No, it was just because they were at a football party."

      That's why Forbes brought up humility as a key component, and humility ties into self hatred and shame. It's an aspect of humility, I think, to accept that you aren't perfect.

      Look at the USA. Constantly referring to themselves as the greatest country ever. And referring to capitalism as the greatest, self correcting, self monitoring system ever invented. That's like the drug addict ... they refuse to admit their country and system might be flawed. That would take humility to set down that road of thinking.

      To me, humility isn't about being kind. Being kind is about being kind. Humility is about accepting you might have flaws and setting out to identify and correct those flaws. That's what humility means to me.

      I wonder if the conquerors of the Congo thought they had any flaws when they were cutting off a mans daughters hands and feet as a punishment for him not meeting his quota of rubber collecting for a single day?

      Not likely. No humility, and therefore no ability to self check and self correct their own flawed behavior.

      But I think when you start digging you also find other things there under the surface like self loathing and shame and anger for sure as motivators. Looking at anger alone, one can see how childhood abuse can be taken out on others later in life because the person is angry. Anger etc are the motivators, but it's humility that can get us LOOKING at these multitude of behaviors with an eye to correcting them.

      Maybe it wasn't so much to say lack of humility caused the problem ... it was more of a suggestion as to how to move forward with initiating the healing process. So, it's not regarded as a cause so much as it is a step toward a cure I think ... gaining humility about the idea one might in fact be sick.

      In a way, it ties into Eastern observations of the ego mind. Big ego's don't often see themselves as having any flaws. That could be translated to mean they lack humility.

      That's how I interpret Forbes focus on humility ... it's about accepting you have a disease in the first place that needs to be cured ... like the drug addict won't do.

      Delete
    3. But to be clear, yes, when you start peeling away the layers of the onion you're going to find self loathing, shame, all of that in there. Those are then the things that need to be addressed and healed ... but you won't start that without the humility to accept you have something going on with you that needs to be fixed. Does that make sense?

      Delete
    4. And, lol, I mean 'you' as in 'the subject', not 'you' as in 'Artleads.'

      ;)

      Delete
    5. Boy, not being very concise today at all.

      It's not saying that lack of humility is the cause.

      It's a suggestion that gaining humility can initiate the healing.

      Does that make sense?

      Delete
    6. To expand on this some more ... self loathing, shame, anger, jealousy ... these are all things a healer will help you to address about your psyche once you begin the healing journey.

      However, the person isn't ever going to walk through the healers door and ask for help until they find the humility to admit they have a problem.

      Does that make more sense how humility ties into this?

      Is Donald Trump asking for healing? Not a chance. He's perfect already.

      See how that works? Most people don't know they have self loathing, etc, etc. They need humility before they can see they have a problem that needs correcting.

      Hope this helps.

      Delete
    7. So to summarize ... lack of humility wasn't presented as a cause. Humility is being proposed as a catalyst for initiating a cure. Then the whole cans of worms let's loose and the myriad of problems that will present can be addressed. And those underlying problems of psyche will be different for everyone depending on their circumstances and the depravity they suffered ... even if that was just simply the misfortune of growing up in the KKK.

      Again, humility isn't being presented as the problem (lack of) ... it's being suggested as a cure. After the humility to begin healing, the problems will be many. Healers spend a lifetime becoming versed in all the various underlying facets of a broken or mis-educated psyche. I think Forbes was pointing to humility as being the thing that would get people on the road to healing from their trauma ... rather than indicating it was the source of the problem. Trauma and the indoctrination into cannibalism is the problem.

      Delete
    8. "We are lost, wetiko all over the place, finished, done, extinction"

      I'd like to remind everyone reading here that the wetiko article, and the entire concept of wetiko, is about proposing a solution ... not about doom and hopelessness.

      I think the person who wrote this comment must have jumped to conclusions without bothering to even read the article.

      Delete
  23. "We are lost, wetiko all over the place, finished, done, extinction"

    I'd like to remind everyone reading here that the wetiko article, and the entire concept of wetiko, is about proposing a solution ... not about doom and hopelessness.

    I think the person who wrote this comment must have jumped to conclusions without bothering to even read the article.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Yes. I get that the humility to see you have a huge problem could help. As I wrote this, I was hearing Amy Goodman talk about the police complaining to Amazon about selling t-shirts having to do with (humorous) referrals to police violence. That's causing racial divisiveness, they say. Talk about the lack of humility there! But that sounds remarkably similar to Netanyahu's scolding of Obama over a UN abstention that was, he assures us, totally scandalous.

      But I don't see the rush to accept everything Forbes says. Good to have him lay down a kind of predicate. He may be 100% correct. Or maybe we all need to hit the pause button and see where we stand first.

      Humility is absolutely critical, but do I understand exactly where it applies? On NBL, I underwent nearly unprecedented hammering. I was putting on a front (not particularly on purpose) to make it seem like I knew more than I did, that I was more somethingorother than I was , that I had some sort of superior status. These were all reactive traits that had become habit over time. And chipping away at them either were the cause or the effect of learning humility...I'm a little puzzled as to which. The end result was to make me feel like a better person and more at peace with myself.

      Global land use seems like a shortcut to apprehending wetiko in a practical, activist sense. My eye alone can now make me see that how global society builds assumes that the hills, contours, planes, shrubs, trees of the landscape are inconsequential, or that they at least pale in comparison with their building, or that the personal satisfaction they confer only matters to the residents--how it concerns them individually. That is wetiko. And what Forbes would say about it I don't know.

      Trying to change individual thinking is perfectly fine, but there are also structural dynamics to any needed change. In the context of the Whole Earth spinning into chaos on every conceivable level, individualism needs to give place to Whole Planet thinking. Lack of this Whole Planet thinking is also a form of wetiko. Many supposed ancient truths get in the way. Israel was promised the Jordan valley, so taking it back is God's will. What about that pause button? Don't throw out your promised land. Just put it on the table with everybody else's concerns. We have to trust people's good will. But that good will is thwarted if the facts are mot laid out transparently for all to see. And the facts don't just gravitate around individual people, but around cultural, environmental and other global systems.

      Wetiko appears to affect every single human in some way, and how you calibrate that (in terms of degrees and qualities)to better understand its workings among 7.4 billion people is certainly a case for that pause button again. I don't see this as a simple matter at all.

      Delete
    2. I've copied and pasted a reply to you seven times now Artleads. It posts, and is there when I reload the page (even several times) ... and then after about two minutes the post gets deleted.

      Can't for the life of me understand why. However, I'm not going to bother anymore.

      Forbes isn't a new idea for me, his book was published in 1978, and I read it about twelve years ago. No rush for me. I've been mulling over and observing his ideas in my own shamanic healing practice for a long time now. By all means, hit the pause button if it holds no appeal for you. I realize your focus is elsewhere.

      Let's see if this post will stick, lol.

      Delete
    3. "Global land use seems like a shortcut to apprehending wetiko in a practical, activist sense."

      I actually see little ability to alter land use without first changing the psychology behind what is driving current land use. It's putting the cart before the horse to me, unless you're going to enforce your proposed changes at gunpoint.

      In my experience, and I've watched this phenomenon unfold for years now in the people who come through my healing practice, when you alter people's psychology, many of the changes you contemplate arise naturally and on their own simply out of clearer thinking.

      And I can still see you're taking the minor point of humility and misunderstanding the role it plays. You have still misinterpreted it as the problem and the solution. It's simply just the catalyst that propels someone to drop their denial and set about on the path to change. You are focusing in the wrong place and are stuck on a minor point in all of this. I agree, you haven't understood the role humility plays in this at all.

      Anyway, it was just something I wanted to throw out in case it was of interest to anyone. It's not something I'm going to sit here and debate about. If it doesn't interest you, then by all means don't investigate it any further. I've said all I think I have to say about it. Endlessly intellectualizing things is folly anyway. Either it appeals to you, and you get interested in it and then research and act upon it, or you don't. Pretty simply really.

      And no, by getting stuck on the humility thing, I think your not really getting it. I also can't see how land use would tie into this at all. Sorry, but I just don't.

      Enough said. Pause button hit. (lol)

      Delete
  24. For sheer curiosity sake ... it seems McPherson has gone from professor to now campground attendant ... offering tourism opportunities complete with zip lines (seriously?) and tubing down the river.

    http://www.stardustsanctuaryfarm.com/about.html

    He's even selling T-Shirts.

    http://www.stardustsanctuaryfarm.com/store.html

    ...

    I can't help but reflect on how, in Hawaii, the indigenous people regard the tourism industry as the key factor in relegating them to the status of second class citizens. So can hardly condone this newest and latest way this man has decided to cobble together a material living for himself. I'm sitting here shaking my head at this.

    Zip lines and inner tubing through the delicate rain forest with the endangered parrots. This is simply just absolutely bizarre to me. How hypocritical. But I guess the man's gotta eat, lol.

    Shameful.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. http://www.stardustsanctuaryfarm.com/about.html

      Thanks for sharing this, LWA. Had no idea this was happening. Years ago, as this was being started (although I didn't know it at the time) I criticized the whole venture for the harm it would cause native people. I was roundly criticized for being racist. Ulvfugl even suggested that if I had any honor I would apologize. (I suppose I had no honor :-)) So, what do I really think? These shriveled up, sick, unclean motherfuckers would do the world a favor if they just stayed home.

      That said, I've been musing about voluntourtism--you go to a place to work, and you live among the people you're working with. Something like the peacecore someone said. Of course, I don't know how that will work either. But there may be worse alternatives if nothing is tried.

      Delete
  25. The nice thing about pause buttons is that they can be un-pressed, lol.

    Here's some quotes on wetiko ...

    Once the parasite becomes sufficiently entrenched within the psyche, the prime directive coordinating a person’s behavior comes from the disease, as it is now the one calling the shots. Just as someone infected with the rabies virus will resist drinking water, which would flush out the infection, someone taken over by the wetiko parasite will have nothing to do with anything that will help them get rid of the disease.

    (yes, let's just press the pause button on this idea, shall we? By all means, let's not rush into accepting this concept ... hahaha>)

    Wetikos are phobic towards the light of truth, which they avoid like the plague. (like the denial seen in drug addicts) In advanced stages, this process takes over the person so completely that we could rightfully say the person is no longer there; they are just an empty shell carrying the disease. In a sense there is just the disease, operating through what appears to be a human being. The person becomes fully identified with their mask, their persona, but it is as if there is no one behind the mask.

    People taken over by the wetiko virus usually don’t suspect a thing about how they have been ‘conned.’ Once under the wetiko spell, they lose the capacity to recognize the wetiko pathology in others.


    And here's one, in particular, for Nemesis ... (wake up my sleeping friend and see yourself!):

    Forbes writes, “one of the major traits characterizing the truly evil and extreme form of wetikoism is arrogance." In being ‘full-blown,’ wetikos are arrogantly puffed up with their own self-importance.’ Instruments for evil, wetikos are arrogantly, ignorantly and self-righteously convinced they are in possession of the truth and working for the highest good. It is as if they are unable to know that what they are doing is evil, unable to register their actions as anything other than good.

    ...

    This Psyche virus thing has come to mind recently while witnessing the primary behavior and associated behavior of the tea party movement. The genius of this particular viral insanity seems to be that it takes root and gestates in the lower 3 chakras and has its victims sincerely believing that they are doing "god's good work" so to speak. Misdirected zeal from the gut...

    ...

    "Wetiko hides in darkness. Conscious awareness brings it into the light. Once we see it, in ourselves and the world around us we can know it, and tame it."

    ReplyDelete
  26. LWA,

    You're prescribing a "must do" program around some human's revelation or study of a phenomenon called wetiko. You must do it this way or be damned. Sounds rather like a religion, does it? It's the opposite of what you earlier said about the 10 commandments. But this could get too argumentative for anyone's good. It's hard not to peek at Kuku just so's not to miss anything. But then one gets roped in, trapped, sort of, and there goes other things we could be doing. I'll try to avoid taking that peek. :-)

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. And I find nothing of value in your droning on about land use ... I can't even make heads or tails of what you write about, it's like gibberish to me. Yet I don't rail against it the way you have railed against this wetiko concept from the start.

      You objection to it speaks volumes Artleads. Caryy on with your gibberish about land use. I won't come on and object to it, even though I find zero value in it. ;)

      You doth protest to much sir ...

      Delete
    2. And Forbes was relaying observations made by several different North American indigenous tribes. It goes quite beyond simply just 'some human's revelation.' How you can even pass such a judgement on a topic after having only just a superficial introduction to the subject is quite beyond me Artleads.

      "The Gnostics also call this subversive parasite of the mind the “archons.” Every wisdom tradition has its own way of symbolizing wetiko; indeed illuminating wetiko is what makes a wisdom tradition worthy of the name. Such traditions include Buddhism, Kabbalah, Hawaiian huna, mystical Islam, shamanism, and alchemy. It is helpful to find other lineages and traditions that illumine the wetiko disease in their own fashion. In this way our multiperspectival vision can enable us to see what no one particular map or model by itself can reveal."

      Are you sure you aren't just reacting to me calling out Nemesis for being a troll? That's what I think this is about.

      Delete
    3. And really, I would think it was a topic quite suited to Satish's blog. It's an indigenous perspective, it draws from ancient wisdom, it attempts to reflect on what may have gone wrong with humans, and it even offers insight into what can be done to correct this aberration of human psychology.

      It really does seems like exactly the thing that might interest Satish, something he might want to inform himself about (especially after mentioning in his blog entry that maybe there was nothing left to discuss.)

      Maybe just consider it a discussion between me and Satish then Artleads. How about that, hey? Just walk on past if it doesn't appeal to you, like I do with your diatribes on land use and civilization viewed as art. And since I know you're thinking it ... no, Nemesis deserved to be called out. He was being a jerk.

      Have a nice day Artleads. Sorry if this topic raised your hackles. :-)

      Delete
    4. And wetiko is about exploring behavioral psychology, not religion.

      I would've thought that was obvious.

      Maybe I should have clarified that at the outset.

      Satish can look into it if the topic interests him.

      Delete
  27. Part 1 of 3

    I decided to write up a case study of wetiko, using the example that so nicely presented itself in this thread. Mostly, just so Satish can see the process in action, along with any others who may or may not be reading here. I'd rather keep it all in this one thread, instead of waiting and bringing it up another time. That way people won't have to go searching for the context, and this keeps it all in one place. This thread really does provide it's own excellent example of wetiko in action. After reading this, readers can then go back and review the thread to see the example happening after I explain it, and that way witness how these wetiko avoidance behaviors surfaced.

    The main issue with addressing wetiko in shamanism is the tactic of 'subconscious avoidance' by the subject. Wetiko will do anything to avoid being addressed and rooted out, it will even resort to violence if it has to. It will also use emotional bluster and manipulation to avoid being exposed as well, along with many other diversions and rationalizations.

    Usually, in a shamanic setting, a subject will remain (somewhat) engaged due to having already invested money in the process ... and people hate to waste their money, so that's why shamonic healers usually charge for their services. People wouldn't come to see them otherwise (lol, seriously ... it keeps them there and keeps them from fleeing.) Hitting rock bottom and the desire to not lose a job or a relationship can be other things that will keep a person engaged in the process, that of bringing their wetiko out of their subconscious, and up into their awareness (which is what dispels it.) Without some anchor to keep them engaged, people will just disengage from the topic and flee, which is what we saw happen in this thread. It's that avoidance thing wetiko does so well, and it does it to keep itself alive.

    I often personify wetiko when I talk about it, because that's just a helpful way to refer to it. However, remember that wetiko isn't a being or a thing ... it's just a psychological condition, it's a behavioral pattern within our subconscious. This is the primary work a shamanic healer does, is to heal people from the grips of wetiko (which can present in any number of ways, and also to varying degrees ... but it's always the same thing in the end that a healer is addressing ... the wetiko condition ... always.

    (continued in next post)

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Part 2 of 3

      Artleads, bless his soul (and I do appreciate and respect Artleads tremendously, really I do) has graciously offered himself up as the guinea pig in this example. I will be referring to my interaction with him on this thread for my demonstration. His reaction to the entire wetiko concept and it being discussed in this thread was a classic and typical example of the avoidance we always see when treating wetiko in people.

      Here's how it played out.

      Artleads got curious when I mentioned the term wetiko, and went and found himself an article about it. However, his subconscious ... due to it perfectly understanding what it was reading, which the subconscious always does ... then proceeded to have him only just 'scan' it quickly. Knowing full well what it was seeing in the words, the wetiko in his subconscious proceeded to then inform his conscious mind that it seemed repetitive, at which point he would have brushed it off, and considered himself aware of wetiko, and simply just moved on. That was one example of avoidance dictated by the wetiko in his mind. The first example.

      Then, Satish came on and said, 'no, it was actually quite interesting.' So, then Artleads went back and gave the article a second look. He then focused in on the 'humility' idea, and proceeded to discuss it with me. A second 'avoidance' was then to subconsciously reverse how the idea of humility was being presented by the article ... it was actually a second instance of avoiding becoming conscious of wetiko.

      The idea of how humility ties into wetiko is going to be perfectly presented by this example as I continue to relay it. The proper way humility ties into wetiko, and this will become clearer as I continue, would have been for Artleads to practice humility toward the idea that maybe wetiko did exist in him, and is a real thing, rather than casting it all off as being an irrelevant subject, and one not very worthy of his attention.

      Instead, the opposite of that humility toward wetiko surfaced. Artleads strangely suggested we put the whole discussion of wetiko on 'pause', and suggested we not rush into what he was trying to rationalize away as just some frivolous topic. In fact, this was the wetiko putting up an avoidance strategy, the very avoidance that was spoken of in the article that he (we all?) read. This is where the humility would come in. The humility to take the subject seriously, instead of allowing your subconscious to deflect you away from topic of wetiko, which is exactly what wetiko will always try to do.

      Wetiko avoids, it's a master avoider and rationalizer ... and it is humility toward the idea that one's mind might be suffering from it that allows one to eradicate it from their subconscious. Wetiko gets eradicated by becoming aware of it, by observing yourself. It really is that simple, and that's why wetiko's main strategy is to avoid discussions about wetiko or about wetiko behaviors, primarily through lack of humility toward the entire notion of wetiko even existing as a condition in the first place. It's this loop that gets created by the wetiko in our thinking. Avoidance strategy loops.

      (continued in next post)

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    2. Part 3 of 3

      Moving this along. The third and final avoidance, through not employing the humility to accept he might indeed be afflicted with this thing called wetiko, came when I pointed out to Artleads his own wetiko behavior explicitly. I gave him a quote about how strongly wetiko will 'avoid' awareness of itself, and then reminded him of his request to put the subject on 'pause', and his suggestion to not rush into even accepting the notion of wetiko.

      At that point, the violent reaction came. He left the blog, claiming he would avoid returning here. And this was after he had just told Eytere Peytere, in this very thread, that no amount of abuse was ever enough to drive him away from NBL. It now appears that being called a stupid moron by Etyere was more tolerable to Artleads than was having wetiko behavior pointed out to him. Suddenly, he was driven off the blog. WTF? That's an example of the irrationality of wetiko, and how sensitive it is to being exposed. Wetiko will NOT tolerate being exposed. Etyere Petyere actually set up the perfect contrast to demonstrate just exactly how irrational wetiko will behave when trying to avoid becoming conscious of it. Suddenly, there was Artleads leaving ... for good.

      It's worth mentioning that his threat to leave Satish's blog was also a veiled attempt to maybe get Satish to shut me up. Wetiko will try and do that too. If someone is pointing out wetiko, people will try and drive that person away socially, maybe get them fired from a job, maybe even punch them if they are in proximity and won't shut up. Nemesis enacted the same avoidance ploy when he left, blaming me, after I pointed out some of his wetiko behaviors to him as well. It's a common tactic wetiko uses ... to have the exposer driven off socially. And it usually works too ... because most of the group will also have wetiko, and fail to see what was really happening in the situation (and also want to avoid wetiko being exposed.)

      Avoidance. Lack of humility toward accepting that ones self may indeed be infected with wetiko behavioral patterns. It's classic wetiko.

      Nemesis ... who says he isn't affected by words on a page, leaving for good because of words on a page. He actually avoided even reading the article altogether. His subconscious sensed full well what it was probably going to say.

      Artleads ... who can't be driven off of any blog ... suddenly now driven off kuku at the mere suggestion that he might have a few wetiko behaviors.

      Avoidance, through lack of acceptance (lack of humility toward accepting any potential wetiko infection of the self.) Classic wetiko.

      Pretty amazing shit. And this is what I work with daily in my shamanic healing practice. Wetiko is the whole name of the game.

      ...

      I could go on some more about what just happened with Nemesis and Artleads just now, but I'll stop there. I'd like to remind Artleads that I was the only one who came on kuku and consoled him after his traumatic surgery awhile back. Nobody else did. That I did out of compassion. Nobody else made a single post to you during those days Artleads ... but I did. Because I genuinely felt for you, and wanted to help. That's not somebody out to hurt you or fight with you. That was genuine compassion that drove me to engage with you recognized that you were troubled. Compassion was mentioned in the wetiko article too. I definitely noticed nobody else stretched out their energy to try and get you through your post surgery trauma. So, how could I be mentioning wetiko just to hurt, you or to fight with you? Same goes for Nemesis.

      Avoidance ... humility ... compassion.

      I'm telling you guys, nothing on this earth will change until we ALL address wetiko. Luckily there are thousands and thousands of shamans out there trying. It ain't easy though. It can even get you punched, lol.

      Cheers Satish. I hope this was illuminating for you. I'm done for now I guess.

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    3. ....

      Oh, and better than looking into Forbes, is to look into shamanic healing. Shamans have been doing this work long before Forbes ever wrote his book and labeled what the shamans are going after with the name wetiko. Forbes plays only a very minor role in all of this, actually. I came across Forbes book only after I'd already been doing shamanic healing work for years. Forbes merely simplified the concept for the modern layman is all. The Forbes info, while good, is actually quite a limited reference on the subject of psychological healing. And Western psychologists are WAY behind the eight-ball on all this too, by the way. Probably due to the wetiko that exists within themselves.

      I hope everyone gets over their little tiffs. ;)

      Peace peeps.

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  28. "And really, I would think it was a topic quite suited to Satish's blog."

    I would think so too... It's fascinating to see folks not wanting to talk about the sickness amidst us civilized peoples. I guess it's a downer topic. Like psychopathy, Wetiko is not very well understood by moderners. It's a subject that evidently causes much discomfort. It's as if discussing it amounts to pleading guilty or owning up to having it. While seeing it in ourselves may be part of fully understanding it, it's not about admitting guilt. It's about seeing the many subtle ways we have been brainwashed over the years and decades of our lives into not seeing what is so strange yet common around us.

    Most people simply don't see it. Most of those who see it prefer to not call it out. I have come across precious few sites/books/articles that discuss either Wetiko or psychopathy and how it has spread all around the planet with the rise of modern civilization to the point that it's accepted as the status quo, something that is just part of the human psychology, a fault of the species. After all, to err is human, they say. So many of these behaviors are explained away as just the sign of the times, or a normal attribute of an imperfect species that doesn't warrant any discussion or debate. After all, we're flawed as a species, always have been and always will be. This is how most people seem to explain to themselves why we're being such a problem on this planet, why we are pushing so many species to extinction and placing ourselves on the same path. It's a cop out. It's easy to say, "oh, we're just flawed, our species is just like this by nature". What a pack of lies we tell ourselves.

    We're not only infected with Wetiko, we're outright liars most of the time when it comes to understanding ourselves.

    I think you said it well, LWA:

    "this process takes over the person so completely that we could rightfully say the person is no longer there; they are just an empty shell carrying the disease. In a sense there is just the disease, operating through what appears to be a human being. The person becomes fully identified with their mask, their persona, but it is as if there is no one behind the mask."

    I have been convinced for a while now that stories are more powerful than the human beings that they take over and use to spread themselves. Memes and stories are a lot more powerful than modern humans. Our ancestors were a lot more conscious of the stories they allowed to make home in their psyches. Healthy tribes were cognizant of the presence of Wetiko amongst their members and dealt with it appropriately and firmly. They didn't shy away from talking about this very negative topic. They were successful, to the extent that tribes were successful at anything for thousands of years, in identifying and routing Wetiko out to prevent it from taking over tribespeople. Such behavior of our ancestors is lost upon moderners, unfortunately. We're comfortable with comfortable topics that provide hope. A tribesman didn't sit around hoping the Wetiko infected person would simply heal himself and go away. He was practical enough to recognize the risk Wetiko posed to the tribesman and to the entire tribe. It was his responsibility to be alert and take the requisite action in time.

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    1. Thanks for your response Satish. I may post a reply yo you over the coming days. I can tell you understand this wetiko concept.

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  29. Another thing Artleads wrote, not that he's here to discuss this anymore, was this:

    "Trying to change individual thinking is perfectly fine, but there are also structural dynamics to any needed change. In the context of the Whole Earth spinning into chaos on every conceivable level, individualism needs to give place to Whole Planet thinking. Lack of this Whole Planet thinking is also a form of wetiko. Many supposed ancient truths get in the way. Israel was promised the Jordan valley, so taking it back is God's will. What about that pause button? Don't throw out your promised land. Just put it on the table with everybody else's concerns. We have to trust people's good will. But that good will is thwarted if the facts are mot laid out transparently for all to see. And the facts don't just gravitate around individual people, but around cultural, environmental and other global systems."

    ....individualism needs to give place to Whole Planet thinking"

    But that's exactly what healing from wetiko is all about ... giving up individualistic "me" thinking. That's how you address individual thinking, is by addressing wetiko ... it cures it at the root.

    " Israel was promised the Jordan valley ... Many supposed ancient truths get in the way"

    Boy, that sure sounds like an angry swipe at discussions of ancient culture's. (?)

    Obviously, this is just a rationalization that Isreal throws out to excuse their selfish wetiko behavior. The ancient land claim is an irrational one, and just the product of wetiko minds that are willing to brutalize someone else for their own advantage (otherwise, we'd be giving the natives back their land in North America.) Bullies always have an excuse for their behavior.

    "Just put it on the table with everybody else's concerns."

    But that's the point here Artleads ... your suggestion is blatantly obvious. But that's not what happens, is it? Because a wetiko mind is not honest or rational, and you're asking Isreal to be rational. So, unless you address the underlying root cause that drives their selfish behavior, the wetiko illness in the psyche, there is no chance of having people up and share the land as you suggest. You speak of it as if the thought just never crossed their minds. No, they need their brutality cured at the root, which is what healing from wetiko does.

    Watching the brutality Israel commits against Gaza ties perfectly into wetiko theory in another way too. It's no surprise that after being brutalized by the Nazi's Israel would then go on to become one of the most brutalizing nations on earth. That's exactly the way wetiko spreads, as was explained earlier.

    Asking for everyone to simply just consider each other's needs, as if it was all just some simple oversight people were having, is never going to happen until you heal their mental state. Observation has proven that when you root out the wetiko in people's psyche, that they then no longer feel ok about oppressing others for your own advantage. It's actually a repugnant notion to a healthy mind.

    This change in outlook of 'putting things on the table along with others concerns' is exactly what awakening from wetiko stimulates. Until you heal people's minds, I'm afraid all your rational suggestions for improved land use are just going to fall on deaf ears. Nobody will adopt the ideas.

    Wetiko isn't a philosophy, or some new set of instructions to follow. It's a methodology for curing a psychotic minds so healthy living can unfold. You just aren't going to hear about it on television is all. People are succeeding at it though, at healing their broken minds. It's just not mainstream information is all.

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    1. A perfect example is climate change denialism. People keep firing more, and more information at these people, think they are just misinformed. If you look closely though, this isn't working to alter their perception at all. They simply cannot hear it.

      It's not an education problem, or an issue of not having the correct information. It's a wetiko problem. This people aren't mis-informed ... they have wetiko. They wouldn't hear the truth if it hit them in the face.

      Educating people with facts is futile. You have to heal their psychosis. After you do that, then the facts are right there in front of them to be picked up and processes. You can't tell an egotistical psycho anything ... especially if you're trying to suggest they stop doing something they are enjoying.

      Climate denialism isn't about information ... it's root is to be found in wetiko.

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  30. I plan on finishing up my work-in-progress blog post in the next few days but we can, of course, continue this conversation here... in fact, I want to continue teasing out the happenings on this thread that caused discomfort to Artleads, Nemesis and perhaps others.

    It's quite unfortunate that Artleads bowed out of the discussion/debate because my next post is going to be about land and our ancestral connection to land. He would like it, I'm sure. But it's going to be around if he chooses to take a peek.

    Going back to Wetiko, I can think of at least half a dozen behaviors/beliefs off the top of my head that either come under the umbrella of Wetiko or are related to it. People infected with Wetiko believe:
    1. the natural order of the world is one of competition. Survival of the fittest is the norm and it's a dog-eat-dog world.
    2. morality is a function of the times and of circumstances. There's nothing absolute and timeless about it. Moral relativism, in short.
    3. there's a certain hierarchical order in nature and in human societies that put some above others. The idea that some deserve and some don't, that some are more qualified and some aren't. This ideology puts notions of fairness and justice and equality on the back burner.
    4. those who are worthy of our time and attention are those who are able to command the time and attention of hundreds, thousands, or better yet, millions of other people. Wetiko infected people outsource their critical thinking skills to the insane crowd. A lack of self-confidence underlies this behavior.
    5. themselves and others around them that are like themselves are not as important as the experts, the leaders, the teachers and the famous. They frequently throw their own views and intuition out the window if they appear to contradict those of the experts or leaders.
    6. they have much to teach the indigenous person about the modern way of life, they have much to offer the rural person and lift them out of stagnation and they have much to contribute to the world technologically. They think that smart phones are useful to teach the farmer better ways of growing food.

    The Wetiko infected person is at the same time arrogant and lacks self-confidence. His arrogance comes from the culture around him, from the teachings of this leader or that guru, from the material wealth and technology he's surrounded by, and from being in the company of millions of other Wetiko-infected people who think alike and do alike. He rarely questions the sickness of an entire culture, a sick society that includes more than 95% of the 7.5 Billion humans on the planet. To question the assumptions of an entire culture, the dominant culture requires a certain kind of self-confidence in one's own abilities, intuition, observational skills, pattern-recognition skills and critical thinking skills that are absent or deficient in the Wetiko-infected individual.

    We're civilized people and we're infected with Wetiko. I'm civilized and I'm infected. It's my job to define the nature of this infection and to see the many ways this culture has brainwashed me throughout my life and to cleanse myself off the false stories, behaviors and patterns I have absorbed from the dominant culture. It's not about guilt or apology, but about growth and evolution.

    That's what it is to me, anyway!

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    1. Regarding this discussion on Wetiko, here is some Buddhism 101 as I have learned it, and teach it to others:

      Before attaining Buddhahhood, as the monk Gotama, he visited 110 different teachers, none of which were able to adequately explain this human condition of ours.

      Finally, after trying asceticism, he sat down beneath the Bodhi Tree (which still exists), vowing to sit there until he died...or attained full and final liberation. He went deeper than he ever had before, and finally found this THING - this psychic entity - this ego-self consciousness.

      I have found you, he exclaimed, the builder of this house of suffering.

      And precisely because he was destined to become the Buddha of this world, having found this psychic entity, he was able to snuff it out, like one would snuff out a candle.

      At that point, all that was left in him was his Buddha-self consciousness - and thus he transitioned from being a seeker, to being a finder.

      His most basic teaching - which he reaffirmed at the end of his earthly life - is that all of us humans have two psychic entities - two sorts of consciousness as part of the human condition:

      One is our Buddha-self consciousness. That consciousness is not marked by impermanence. As we move from life to life, it remains a part of us no matter what form we might inhabit.

      The other is our ego-self consciousness. That consciousness is marked by impermanence. It arises as we begin the journey of this life, and takes a unique form, based on many factors. And when we leave this body and this life, that consciousness simply vanishes.

      This human consciousness we have is problematic - according to the Buddha. It is what shamanic cultures are really pointing to when they think of concepts such as Wetiko. It really is the builder of this house of suffering. It is our ego, and our ego is full of all sorts of grasping, all sorts of shadow, all sorts of darkness.

      Of course, the Buddha is not the only teacher to recognize this dual nature of the human mindstream. I just happen to be of the opinion that he was and is the smartest guy in the room, which is why I have embraced his teacher and call myself a disciple of his, however poor a disciple I am.

      His views inform my own views about myself, about others, and about the current pickle that we are all in on this planet. Our ego-self consciousness is Wetiko. It is as simple as that. Yes, it is vampiric, and totally destructive. Yes it exists in the mindstream of each of us and all of us.

      And yes, if we are "seekers" in any tradition of "the path" - including shamanism, any of the abrahamic religions, any of the eastern religions, we experience this split inside between our Buddha-self and our ego-self - or our "spirit" and our "flesh" - or our "higher self" and our "lower self" - or our "Self" and our "self".

      The vocabulary changes, but the underlying reality remains the same. Our egotism was, is and always will be the fundamental problem - or as Gotama puts it, the builder of this house of suffering.

      In some schools of Buddhism (including the one I subscribe to) it is considered impossible to do, on this planet, at this time. Our individual and corporate Wetigo is a bigger problem than we can actually manage. It is more subtle, and more intractable, than we can imagine.

      Look, for example, at the conversation above between LWA and Nemesis, or LWA and Artleads. How much does it remind you of countless other internet conversations, including those on NBL? Is there any lack of egotism - of Wetigo - in any of the participants?

      The question that remains is, how and when will that egotism - that Wetigo - be eradicated for each one of us - and by extension, for all of us?

      We have an ongoing discussion about that here:

      https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/true_shin_buddhism/info

      Best wishes for a blessed New Year!

      Paul Roberts

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    2. 4,026 character limit kept me from saying ...

      Paul ... I mean no disrespect to your Buddhism. It's just that the Dalai Lama's books are million sellers here in America, and it isn't producing any tangible changes in people's basic behavior and motivators. People intellectualize it ... and don't PRACTICE IT ... like it was a TV show they watched, and they think hey got it, and then they move onto the next cool new thing to 'intellectualize' (and not put into practice.)

      My seemingly 'harsh' approach, which comes from the delightfully playful and sarcastic South American Toltecs, seems to reach the subconscious of westerners much better. It get's then thinking. Maybe something a little stronger is needed for westerners, otherwise they just smile and turn it into hot yoga studios.

      The toltec approach to raising self awareness of the ego is actually my favorite technique to apply with people. But yes, it's not fluffy, and it ain't no church.

      I'm glad Buddhism works for you though. I truly meant no disrespect.

      ;)

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    3. Hi LWA - It's nice to meet you, and no I didn't take your remarks as being personally disrespectful to me or my own path.

      I've been on the path (in one way or another) for a long time. So I am pretty familiar with the offerings that are out there. I am convinced, personally, that when people find the path, and the path finds them, their karma determines what makes the most sense for them at any point in time.

      And I am familiar enough with the idea of "left hand" paths as well as "right hand" paths. With left hand paths - where the teacher uses the kinds of tools you mention above, I think it is really important that he (or she) has real permission from the other person in the discussion. Without that permission, all that remains is the old game of "I'm OK, you're not OK"...again, something that NBL was just full of, all the time.

      I don't consider that UPAYA - ie skillful means.

      Honestly, it looked to me like Nemesis and you were just banging heads, playing silly one-upmanship spiritual word games like a couple of alpha gorillas with outsized brains.

      Both of you left the "Dharma debate" feeling like you had shown the other's foolishness. Boring, mundane - Wetigo to the max on both sides.

      With Artleads, I would say you behaved like a bully. He's not an alpha type - and got the crap beat out of him continually on NBL by those who were, most notably Uglfuvl. I read through the archives - and it was pretty repulsive to read.

      So what did your bullying accomplish here? Did you help him in any way? Did you serve him in any way? Did you awaken him from the dark dream of ego-self consciousness in any way?

      Since he left and said he would never return, it sure doesn't look like it to me - no matter how much you might try to justify it by invoking your own favorite spiritual teachers.

      Of course, these are just my own opinions - but they come not just from my observation of others (like you and Ug and Robin Datta) but from my observations of myself.

      Again, I've been doing this a long time - so I have had the chance to make most, if not all, the mistakes that anyone can make as a path walker, and as a teacher of others too.

      Wetigo - or our ego-self consciousness - is very tricky, and very subtle. Pogo was right on the money when he said, "We have met the enemy, and he is us".

      My best wishes to you in 2017 - in your personal life, and in your work with others, too. Paul

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    4. Well, I'm not going to debate you on the subject, you seem to have a pretty smug opinion of where you're at yourself, speaking of spiritual one upmanship and all that.

      But for what it's worth ... Nemesis has a habit of feeling he can come out and whack people with his stick, yet reacts pretty poorly whenever his views are challenged, and then devolves quite quickly into pettiness. I simply chose to poke him back in an effort to show him his hypocrisy. I wasn't fighting ... it was a calculated ploy to mirror to him his behavior and demonstrate his hypocrisy to him. He's been pulling some behavior lately that certainly warranted being addressed.

      Also, I do dispute the effectiveness of afterlife fixations as being of any help to raising people's consciousness at this point in our evolution. Nemesis didn't seem to be able to have that discussion without reacting badly to the notion, and I simply was trying to see if he even heard what my point was. He didn't have to agree with it, I just wasn't even sure he heard it. I'm actually pretty certain he didn't hear it, but I thought it was worth trying.

      like a couple of alpha gorillas with outsized brains.

      Ha. Nice one, spoken like a true gorilla with an outsized brain, one who is jumping to conclusions about his perspective maybe? You probably don't want to know what I thought of what I saw going on at your yahoo group, I'll leave the insulting condescension and smugness to you. I was disappointed though.

      And telling people they can't heal from wetiko? What kind of garbage is that? But I'm not going to waste my time taking you to task over your literary beliefs. You seem quite certain of yourself and your instructors.

      Regarding Artleads, I felt it would be poignant for him to see that other people might not always be interested in what he writes about either, but that we don't discourage him from continuing, in case someone else might find it interesting. Instead of telling him that, I SHOWED him that. Much more effective, but yes, probably not cuddly enough for your tastes I'm sure. And really, leaving the blog? What, are we six years old here?

      Pointing out to people their subconscious avoidance strategies is a key part of becoming aware of wetiko, and then learning to do that for yourself while moving along the path to healing from it. That may have been what offended Artleads, which is an expected reaction.

      For someone who was 'told' wetiko can't even be addressed, I find it odd that you're suddenly an expert at methodologies for making people aware of it.

      After reading a bit on your yahoo group, I'm not really sure we're even having the same conversation here anymore Paul. I think you're certainly on a different path.

      Thanks for putting me in my place though. Nemesis would be proud. ;)

      Also, I've been watching Artleads on another blog since our discussion here. Yes, I think the gears are turning. I simply follow my guidance. It's not usually too far off the mark.

      I won't patronize you with a fluffy goodbye after you called me a gorilla though. I'll leave the platitudes to you and your yahoo group. What are you teaching people over there anyway? Is that some form of Christian based Buddhism or something? I found it rather pedantic. How is memorizing trivial terminology from another language helping people anyway? That's what I meant by intellectualizing things, and never actually acting on anything tangible. It seems robotic. Are you sure you're not just giving people egophrenia with that sort of teaching?

      Anyway. If you really don't think wetiko can even be addressed, there's probably little point in my discussing it with you any further. Feel free to keep posting though. I'm sure others are reading here too. And seriously, you're soft tone doesn't make your ego any less evident you know, since you concede that your own ego can't be managed anyway. ?

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    5. Paul, I very much appreciate your comments re Buddhism and the two selves. I have experienced two selves and dual consciousness multiple times in my life, and being aware of this truth is core to all understanding. I have loved Buddha and Buddhism for years.

      However, I don't think the one level of self that I think you mean when you refer to "ego," and Wetiko are the same thing. I am American Indian and grew up in a family with several traditional elders. Native cultures are a fundamentally different worldview, and their concepts cannot always be translated into Western or Eastern equivalents, and Wetiko is one of those concepts. It might be easier to find equivalents to the Native worldview among other tribal people around the world, but not within nature-barren civilization. North American Native Americans were spiritualists and naturists, above all.

      This is an aside, and not meant to indicate any position on the discussion here, for I have not read it all. However, in my experience of reading LWA's posts for a couple of years (I think), he has always been right on in his understanding of Native American culture and worldview.

      LWA, I only wish to say thanks for getting it. Thanks for caring enough to get it.

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    6. Hi oldgrowthforest. So nice to hear from you. :)

      Now I have to do something unfortunate.

      About this 'reformed' shin Buddhism stuff ...

      All we need to do for our attainment of Buddhahood in the Pure Land is mentioned in the Primal Vow of Amida Buddha: to say the Name in faith and wish to be born there. Nothing else. No meditation practices, no this or that special virtue, just entrust to Amida, say his Name and wish to be born in his Pure Land.

      If you have genuine faith in Amida, then you naturally say his Name and wish to be born in his Land after death. It is as simple as that. Also, in order to have faith in Amida, you need to accept that he is a real and living Buddha, and in order to wish to be born in his Land you also need to accept that this land is true and real. I think that everybody, even illiterate people, can understand this simple logic.


      Mormons are required to proclaim Joseph Smith was a real and living prophet. And they're also required to proclaim that I know the Mormon book is true and real. That's it, end of the teachings.

      Mormons also slaughtered a lot of Native Americans.

      Who are you kidding here Paul?

      Your 'faith based' religion bemoans that life is suffering, but that one needn't worry ... because soon a savior will release you from this hellish existence, whereupon you'll be born into a heaven of perfect bliss and perfection. The adherents I read passages from proclaim how they can't wait to get there too, and how much of a relief it will be when they do. And all they need to do, since all other spiritual practices are false and don't work, is simply say the name of your savior figure ... and bang ..., there's no need for anything else. That's it. Just like Mormonism.

      Paul, isn't proclaiming your master as being 'the smartest guy in the room' just the ultimate in arrogance and spiritual one upmanship? If you truly had faith, and if you truly understood the impermanent nature of your time here, then you would no longer refer to it as 'suffering.'

      Who suits up, steps onto a playing field ... and then sits in the middle of the field bemoaning the game and praying for the end buzzer to ring so they can just go home again?

      This is just fundamentalist christianity wrapped in Buddhist adornment. It's the equivalent of Mormonism. You're preaching hopelessness and defeat and escapism to people, teaching them to reject this place. No wonder you were reading Guy's archives. I'm appalled at your arrogance. I understand now why you say healing is impossible, it's a tenet of your faith.

      “With your whole heart look forward expectantly to birth in the Pure Land, worship and bear in mind the Buddha of Infinite Light, and don’t think about anything else, nor perform any other spiritual practices.” Honen Shonin

      “With your whole heart look forward expectantly to birth in the [Celestial Kingdom], worship and bear in mind [Jesus Christ our lord, (actually the pro$it Joseph Smith)], and don’t think about anything else, nor perform any other spiritual practices.” Book of Mormon


      You know, this shin stuff reminds me of how the missionaries took words and bits and pieces of native culture, and then used them to cloak empires version of christianity with them. Then they taught it to Native kids in residential schools in order to decimate their culture. I wonder if this is what they teach now in the residential schools in Tibet? I'm appalled. This is wetiko, not Buddhism.

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    7. "The first American mingled his pride with a singular humility. Spiritual arrogance was foreign to his nature and teaching ..." Ohiyesa

      "The warrior lowers his head to no one, but at the same time, he doesn't permit anyone to lower their head ti him. I know only the humbleness of a warrior, and that will never permit me to be anyone's master." Juan Matus

      And slightly removed, but relevant to wetiko ...

      "If we have corn and meat, and know of a family that have none, we divide with them. If we have more blankets than sufficient and others have not enough, we must give to them that want." Black Hawk

      Now that's an actionable spiritual belief. I'm glad this thread has motivated me to read Forbes book again. Love it!

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    8. I forgot to say, that I saw on your sites and blogs how you proclaim to have some certain level of attainment (it's some fancy word you use) and that some of the others who you minister to claim they aren't there yet themselves, and have great reverence for this 'attainment' you've ascribed to yourself.

      You must really enjoy that attention.

      That's ego Paul. Wetiko.

      That's why I presented those first two quotes for you, from another spiritual practice ... one of those one's that doesn't work, and that people should stay away from according to your proclamation.

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    9. One last thing here Paul, because it's a few good examples of the ways in which wetiko behavior will manipulate people, and I consider them to be among the worst ways to bully people, by subconsciously manipulating them.

      First, I'll point out that you aren't just saying that other religions are false, you're literally instructing people that other teachings from Buddhism are also false and pointless. Now here's the manipulation, and this works surprisingly well on many people, especially on socially insecure people.

      When people on your blogs tell you they still find it interesting to look into other Buddhist teachings, here's how you respond. You first tell them that sure, they are free to do that. That makes you seem uncontrolling and easy going. It draws people in. It seems like you're not denying them their freedom to explore other teachings. But then, you end your sentence by saying 'but no true shin would ever bother to do that.' That negates your initial permission ... it just does it in a manipulative and shifty way.

      Obviously you can or you can't, and here you've said both. You've confused the person. Self conscious people striving to impress you will most times make the choice to not. It's called the no true Scotsman fallacy. "No true Scotsman would do such a thing." Or ... "Go ahead ... BUT, no true shin would do such a thing."

      It's actually bullying, believe it or not. And you're not even coming right out and being authentic about it. You begin by saying, sure ... go ahead, look into other Buddhist teachings ... BUT ... no true Sctotsman would ever do such a thing. You look cool, AND deny them permission to do so using a social pressuring tactic.

      You did this to me when you claimed you didn't criticize people for following their own paths. But clearly you do, it's clearly one of the main tenets of your faith ... you clearly claim other paths are false and useless. That's being duplicitous Paul, you're not being honest there. You are judging other paths. So ... your saying one thing, and doing another.

      Here's another one ... your statement from my earlier post that 'even an illiterate person can understand this logic.' That form of bullying really works on self conscious people. People figured out a long time ago that people don't want to appear stupid in a social group. So if they're not really getting this shin stuff, or having doubts about it ... do they want to be even more stupid than an illiterate person? No, they don't. So they'll agree with you. They'll fake it till they hopefully make later, so to speak. It's manipulative language, and you're bullying people with it.

      And illiterate people aren't stupid, either. Their just illiterate. But you use it to mean 'stupid.' If a person was illiterate, they wouldn't even be able to read what you wrote at all, which would maybe even be a plus for them. (Ha, little joke there ... come on, laugh with me.)

      So you see Paul? Maybe you're really the bully here. Mormons use both those techniques socially on people too, it's just part of their bullying behavior they pick up from their group. 'No true shin would ever do that' ... and also the 'you don't want to appear stupid for not getting this do you' manipulations.

      Dude ... you need some healing.

      I'll leave this conversation with another choice quote from one of your sites. Look at the desire for power dripping off this one. Scary. This is also wetiko desires.

      "I find consolation that when I become a Buddha in a few years from now (that sounds so amazing when I say it!!), I will have such unbounded joy in nirvana and such empowerment as a transcendent Buddha that I will no longer ache for them, I will use my powers of Buddhahood and will joyously assist countless beings leading them toward SHINJIN and salvation by Amida Buddha."

      Cheers Paul, from your friend the gorilla.

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